0:06 Speaker 1: Okay, so welcome everyone to the next version of our podcast on power. Speaker 1: I'm dr. Speaker 1: Steve in a gunter with dr.. Paul Donovan and we're exploring all sorts of fascinating facets Of Power. Speaker 1: And today Pretty cool i think because We're going To Talk About What's Called Leading Up or Cedar Basta Calls it leading from Down Power. Speaker 1: So of Course Power is Always Conceptualized With the boss and person with a position, authority or control over resources. Speaker 1: But today we're looking at how can you recognise your power even if not the Boss?

0:46 Speaker 1: And there's actually more to it than one might think! Speaker 1: So...how do you want to start that? Speaker 0: Can't wait for this Vene because it is such an massive topic…and so many people have spoken you too, over the years about how to influence their boss. Speaker 0: To have...to be able to alter how the bosses working with them because they're finding it so difficult or It might not be difficult but They might really want to become someone who? Speaker 0: The Boss really loves and depends upon in a useful way.

1:24 Speaker 0: So maybe-maybe the relationship isn't necessarily problematic But You Wanted Be Someone Who works with this relationship up with your boss much more effectively, so that you can be a far greater value. Speaker 0: So it can increase your value in the system or you just want to change some damn bad habits these bosses got and when we approach us most people understandably approach Powerlessness and frustration. Speaker 0: Like what can I do about my boss? Speaker 0: They've got all this authority, you know they Can Do this that they can close me down they can give Me work they can take work away they can Give me a performance appraisal they could speak over me without Something bad happening in a meeting because there gonna end.

2:17 Speaker 0: so it can feel like You're going up a hill That's just too steep and to far. Speaker 0: but that's not the truth. Speaker 0: Most of us have far more power in affecting our bosses' behavior and how they think or feel about us than we might imagine. Speaker 0: And that's what I want to start with, yes? Speaker 1: Yeah! Speaker 1: One thing important to point out here is that... ...in the position of power someone can appear relatively invulnerable. Speaker 1: you know They can hurt us but can't really hurt them.

2:53 Speaker 1: And yet that's actually not true, the more formal authority someone has and their vulnerabilities increased because they're highly dependent on people under them or the cooperation of subordinates. Speaker 1: so what we are talking about is how to insert yourself into vulnerability. Speaker 1: Vulnerability is less power and dependency as less power. Speaker 1: And if a boss dependent on you, then you have some power in that situation. Speaker 0: Yes! Speaker 0: That's right...and thats what so easily forgotten because If your boss gets openly frustrated or irritated with you which has very big power move to be short of you just bark orders at you You might feel suddenly very powerless.

3:43 Speaker 0: But the truth is, your boss IS dependent upon you. Speaker 0: And the higher you get...the more dependent they are on more people!

3:55 Speaker 0: It actually serves both us and our Boss to be awake to this. Speaker 0: It really does. Speaker 0: it serves us if we can be awake to the needs of the boss because the bosses First of all is likely to being a kind of a deprivation. Speaker 0: They don't get as much data. Speaker 0: As you do about The world that your in. Speaker 0: They're getting other kinds of information, but they are often lacking data about what you're seeing. Speaker 0: The work that your do with the stakeholders and even colleagues in a team With others teams.

4:30 Speaker 0: You see things that your boss doesn't And this information can be extremely valuable deprivation chamber they're in with information and the more vulnerable they become because that don't have it. Speaker 0: And we all can be more valuable, and more effective on our manager by knowing

5:06 Speaker 1: Ultimate upward currency before we do that. Speaker 1: I want to mention something else about this power? Speaker 1: Yeah, down Power person has which is a kind of psychological concept That's used a lot in Gestalt therapy Which is what i practice because? Speaker 1: We talk About Two fundamental roles that people often find themselves in formally or informally which Is so-called top dog And underdog. Speaker 1: now the boss and the employee fit into a classic top dog an underdog, it's legitimate.

5:37 Speaker 1: There's all sorts of other circumstances in which we find ourselves In that role. Speaker 1: It might be with the parent but it also might Be with our partner who suddenly moves Into this so-called top dog roll and says why haven't you cleaned out? Speaker 1: The cupboard? Speaker 1: I asked yesterday and then You know. Speaker 1: So there is psychological dynamics as well structural ones. Speaker 1: Now, one of the interesting things about this that we discover when working with people is it looks like the top dog has in fact all authority and yet the so-called underdog actually has a different kind of power And you can see these in workplaces very classically.

6:21 Speaker 1: let's say The boss asked someone to do something. Speaker 1: you know in various positions I'd been, of course i've asked people to do something for me. Speaker 1: uh or directed them. Speaker 1: You know ask directed them instructed them and then if the person doesn't do that what do I do? Speaker 1: I can say ah look you know I asked you to do that last week and this still isn't done. Speaker 1: um Can you make sure that you do it in the next three days? Speaker 1: oh yes yeah so sorry...I couldn't get.

6:51 Speaker 1: three days go by. Speaker 1: What's happening with this? Speaker 1: I haven't heard from Speaker 1: you.". Speaker 1: Oh, we were inundated by customer requests and that kind of process can go on for a long time and it becomes... In my experience is incredibly frustrating when supposedly have the power what Fritz Pils called manjana. Speaker 1: Oh, tomorrow! Speaker 1: Tomorrow! Speaker 1: So the person in this underdog role can actually frustrate a boss by non-corporation and that's often what we call underdog behaviour is very common.

7:35 Speaker 1: then you get into a dyad where top dogs pressuring more and the underdogs escaping more. Speaker 1: So, but what... The reason I'm raising this is to point out that in fact there it's not as simple as someone having all the power or authority of their confidence or resources That the underdog role can be just powerful Fritz Pearl says, sometimes more powerful because they can just constantly avoid and go underground. Speaker 1: And I'm sure everybody's experiences in their life and it's incredibly frustrating when you're in the underdog role does that?

8:07 Speaker 1: You don't necessarily feel empowered but boy! Speaker 1: You can frustrate a boss Speaker 0: Yes...and thereby exercise significant power around whether something happens the impact on your boss and even how you're bosses experience by his or her colleagues, depending upon whether certain things are happening in their team. Speaker 0: So that's Speaker 1: dependency? Speaker 1: That what I'm talking about. Speaker 1: we gonna come back to power but i wanna mention a dependency aspect.

8:38 Speaker 0: Yeah! Speaker 0: I think thats fantastic. Speaker 0: thanks for raising it. Speaker 0: also then if go this notion is if your boss has formal authoritative role-power then if we're going to work well with them, honestly mostly what I say to my own clients is you need to be able to speak straight-to-them. Speaker 0: But... You don't have the authority to take a role or rank in your role just to do that! Speaker 0: You've got draw on some other power so as to them adult-to-adult. Speaker 0: And one of the ways, for instance draw on informational power because it's the ultimate upward currency is to be able gain and have information that I was mentioning a few minutes ago about your boss really needs you can provide.

9:41 Speaker 0: so match their formal authority with with power from other channels and information is one of them. Speaker 0: And here's where I'll mention the radio framework because it's just so helpful to think about what your boss needs, so Radio stands for R-A-D-I-O, stands for retrieval access dissemination, interpretation and organization. Speaker 0: And when you think about the information that's required it is helpful if we can bring those five distinctions to the information. Speaker 0: so how You know, can you actually retrieve it?

10:27 Speaker 0: What do have access to that? Speaker 0: your boss maybe doesn't have as much more straightforward. Speaker 0: Much easier access too. Speaker 0: Can you disseminate information on behalf of the boss or for your boss Or to your boss That they're unable to do? Speaker 0: There might be a gap in you knowing The information that their boss needs. Speaker 0: They are just not getting. Speaker 0: And so, and they may not even be aware that they need it until you let them know there is this information That's required here.

11:02 Speaker 0: I can get it for You!

11:06 Speaker 0: Finally into interpretation and organization. Speaker 0: I mean Interpretation as critical...you Can share with your boss a graph. Speaker 0: but can you Share? Speaker 0: Boss a graph and your meaning that you would make from it. Speaker 0: It's the notion of don't bring them a problem Just bring their problem, and a potential solution as well. Speaker 0: so I'm bringing the graph. Speaker 0: Bring your interpretation And Considerate to be away. Speaker 0: You can add value to your boss As you do it?

11:32 Speaker 0: Then Can you organize all this information into A really interesting sensible means of bringing distinction to the various kinds of information that's available. Speaker 0: Organize it for them, put it somewhere where its good for them get. Speaker 0: make your access-to-information a strategic value.

11:58 Speaker 0: and then you've added value to your boss top dog underdog, you've started to migrate. Speaker 0: Well that's always true! Speaker 0: You have all now migrated up to become partner because your adding value into something the boss requires. Speaker 0: They're old boys being this vulnerable but they are providing information for their vulnerability. Speaker 0: So the radio and even Google up Radio R-A-D-I-O anyway And get a great description of things which can be done by your boss. Speaker 0: Information power Yeah.

12:34 Speaker 1: That's right, so we're outlining how most people are potentially much more power than they think they do and I actually experienced this recently where my assistant here sent me a document regarding business negotiation that were engaged with...and i didn't want to read the whole document.

13:02 Speaker 1: This is the information. Speaker 1: Can you just give me an interpretation of it? Speaker 1: Like I don't want to have to go through this entire document, like summarize and tell me what they're significant points are You know a given to be you not-you know What we doing. Speaker 1: you know We trying to do. Speaker 1: you know with The other party's Trying To Do. Speaker 1: i want you to digesting. Speaker 1: Give It to Me. Speaker 1: so that's exactly what I was asking her for. Speaker 0: Wow Fascinating yeah And you can imagine if your the employee That actually anticipates the needs of a boss.

13:32 Speaker 0: Where they say, oh I know we need to get that report don't. Speaker 0: when you go yeah Oh Yeah! Speaker 0: i can Get That Report and then You Get It Go. Speaker 0: Oh And By The Way Here Is What? Speaker 0: I Thought With The Key Points Of This Data is Really it's A God Send To Bosses Because The High They Get Their More Starved For They Are For Time And that is of real value to them. Speaker 0: So you can help bridge this massive information gap, um... That most bosses are experiencing even if they don't know it and its like.

14:11 Speaker 0: I was recently working with someone just as an interesting example of this recently when I was working And there were a senior person and they realised that their engagement scores in the people who had been in the organisation for just two years, we're concerningly low.

14:32 Speaker 0: They are higher than those who have been in this organisation longer. Speaker 0: One of them managed some of these people less time, also happened to notice that this trend was well beyond their team but a lot of other teams who had members who were there relatively short period. Speaker 0: It turns out it's part the organization tended more than new members. Speaker 0: so very enterprising manager decided simply do series interviews with people after they've been in nine months beyond their own team, but into other teams.

15:14 Speaker 0: And they gained permission from various bosses just that I'm gathering some information to give them color and data. Speaker 0: we pulled on the whole organizational engagement map fabulous insight into what was going on across these people who had only been in the organization for two years. Speaker 0: And there was a genuine gap-in onboarding that was ricocheting over the last, over the whole eighteen month first year if they managed to stay.

15:52 Speaker 0: The people at the top just didn't know that. Speaker 0: They knew of them, they kind a problem but did not have any finer data on it because everyone was managing their own teams. Speaker 0: and well It is way relatively inexperienced manager who had people reporting to him only been in company for less than two years started become very valuable managers indeed.

16:18 Speaker 0: It interestingly then had a series of meetings with the executive team one-on-one to share their data, to share information. Speaker 0: So we've got high currency With a lot senior people for someone who hadn't been in company that long. Speaker 1: That's great way to get advanced in your career is do those kind things because you notice and basically solving problems The bosses have but they don't know how solve. Speaker 1: so exactly? Speaker 1: This is an example of leverage which can be exercised Proactively, this wasn't something that the person was even asked to do I guess.

16:51 Speaker 1: It's just something they noticed and were motivated to do something about. Speaker 1: so yes if you want to get ahead in your company That is a great way of doing it! Speaker 0: Yeah...it was a fabulously strategic thing for us. Speaker 0: This goes into this notion If we wanna build our career think about your career strategically and look for where there's gaps in information above. Speaker 0: And see whether you can retrieve it, then get it! Speaker 0: That might be doing something that is beyond your immediate job because just performing well on a good performance appraisals doesn't correlate very highly with getting promoted.

17:32 Speaker 1: And in terms of this following on from what you're saying, we can quote a book. Speaker 1: I think that both really like Machiavelli and Carnate. Speaker 1: It's not well-known books by a Brisbane author but it is the fantastic kind of contemporary rendition for Machiavellis. Speaker 1: So interesting! Speaker 1: One thing he talks about are visionaries. Speaker 1: so basically if you identify your bosses priorities their needs personality their kind of ethos, the thing that they lead with.

18:04 Speaker 1: And you know for instance if a boss is a visionary then position yourself as the sort of visionaries, visionary. Speaker 1: You feed them ideas and analyze data that supports their goals. Speaker 1: if they're practically oriented then you are going to do that. Speaker 1: so this really puts your in a position being an important adjunct and support I mean it's positive thing not just manipulation. Speaker 1: actually supporting what bosses wants to achieve into doing with particular vein which there interested now when you're interested or using could be good your agenda.

18:38 Speaker 1: but Speaker 0: Yeah, yes. Speaker 0: And this doesn't have to be done as you've implied. Speaker 0: it's not a manipulative thing. Speaker 0: It's looking to see how else can I add value? Speaker 0: To my bosses as opposed to How could i just meet requirements? Speaker 0: or how Can i make sure i don't screw up with My bosses? Speaker 0: Or how can i show i avoid the bad kind of attention that some people get from bosses where they'll come down and Get micromanaged. Speaker 0: We're really looking to see whether you can use your power intelligently, because you have way more than you think if you lower down.

19:19 Speaker 0: Because people above are dependent upon you and the Machiavelli Incarnate is a great... it's a storybook. Speaker 0: he tells wonderful stories in an allegory of understanding how especially with people who are more powerful than you. Speaker 0: And in fact he, as other authors have mentioned a couple of quick hints and I'll just share one is... Other authors, Pfeiffer has said this well like if your boss asks for feedback Just consider carefully what feedback they're capable Because not all bosses who want feedback can handle it.

20:05 Speaker 0: So be careful and be intelligent about what you offer them, don't... launch into information about their shortcomings. Speaker 0: that just may not work well with you and it might damage your relationship. Speaker 0: Look to give them feedback, but be mindful they're a person like you are. Speaker 0: Yeah, respect their time. Speaker 0: They're often as you climb up they are more time crunched. Speaker 0: so do things efficiently. Speaker 0: try not to be demanding of the time and in a way that doesn't seem efficient look to do things that respects the crunches there on.

20:58 Speaker 0: it's usually very appreciated And Look for Things You Think. Speaker 0: You know, like often when we are managing up We forget that Actually our bosses people and we want to be able to Give them feedback about things. Speaker 0: That you think of meaningful to them. Speaker 0: Did they cause him? Speaker 0: And if there's something that They take pride in doing that you think they're doing well then give some feedback on that. Speaker 0: Let them know. Speaker 0: It's not just their job to give feedback to you, if you can actually look and get feedback from them then your starting to manage up in a really powerful way Especially Speaker 1: if you give them feedback.

21:47 Speaker 1: It's not just about flattery, I guess according to Feffer has its place but it is also supporting and helping people feel good themselves in a way that can be valid where they are achieving something. Speaker 1: so... They need recognition from that just recognition from their bosses or the public of the board, they need recognition for people under them. Speaker 1: So yes using power positive acknowledgement and even perhaps gratitude to use a more contemporary concept is very appropriate here.

22:22 Speaker 1: And it's also something about feedback being as bad news very tricky. Speaker 1: One thing you can do is identify problems before they escalate. Speaker 1: So, before it gets to the bad news if you're able to recognise something and provide a solution or some useful information that's empowering rather than just sort of shocking brings their energy down, innovating. Speaker 1: then again you can become a source of support for the boss which is likely to be appreciated.

22:58 Speaker 0: And this is the big mindset shift for me. Speaker 0: if you want to create a better relationship with your boss then Avoid the winch and avoid connecting with others about how shitty of bosses. Speaker 0: I look just see what needs they have. Speaker 0: up there and Meet them, and as we've discussed already in us in his podcast information Is our big need? Speaker 0: Up atop. Speaker 0: If you can look for where the information gaps are and use radio as a means of giving more distinction to the information they need, how are going get it?

23:34 Speaker 0: Interpretate. Speaker 0: Organize it in that again access to then That's gonna be very Very powerful because they are dependent upon you. Speaker 0: but You know And as you've said if your boss is a visionary Then look to do things that support them. Speaker 0: If you got to give them bad news Give It To Them Early and give it to them sensitively, respect their time. Speaker 0: And help them actually feel good about themselves because as bosses climb up anyone will know who's experienced this.

24:08 Speaker 0: generally we get more stressed and We can often feel not so good about ourselves Because we're just running around feeling like our day has become less under our control than It ever was before we were elevated. Speaker 0: So these are ways to become very reliably depended upon as a person who has less authority. Speaker 0: in the system. Speaker 0: And we just encourage you to change your mindset and do. Speaker 0: that can be very, very helpful. Speaker 1: I'm thinking about a great story read by he's writer for Esquire magazine.

24:53 Speaker 1: i cant recall his name right now. Speaker 1: he has written few good articles. Speaker 1: He was talking point at which he is quite overwhelmed with. Speaker 1: he's a writer, is researcher or journalist. Speaker 1: He was quite overwhelmed with so many tasks and you know...he had his finger in a lot of pies. Speaker 1: So he thought about here this idea of getting a virtual assistant. Speaker 1: And he thought well why not? Speaker 1: I'll try it? Speaker 1: So he found this Indian woman In India..and uh....he'd never done this before.

25:28 Speaker 1: She said okay what are your problems? Speaker 1: What are the things that you're overwhelmed Speaker 1: by?". Speaker 1: And he told her a few things. Speaker 1: She was just like, a dream example of what we were talking about. Speaker 1: so she said okay I can do that and in very positive warm supportive way...she went there and did it kind of a bit more than he asked and she presented him with that kind of completed assignment plus some possibilities, ways. Speaker 1: And what else do you have?

26:05 Speaker 1: her problem? Speaker 1: He was like oh wow! Speaker 1: That's really cool. Speaker 1: so he describes how we built this relationship over the number of months. Speaker 1: She just solved all his problems Like these little issues and things absorbing him and frustrating him. Speaker 1: This woman is so cool Every time she talked to talked to her, she was just so positive and kind of warm and friendly.

26:28 Speaker 0: And then Speaker 1: what else is there? Speaker 1: He said well I've got you know this also some things in my personal life that different duties and different things. Speaker 1: I've got to track and find Speaker 1: answers.". Speaker 1: And she said, ''I can handle Speaker 1: that.''. Speaker 1: So over the period of months you know he just had this wonderful experience with his person supporting him in every aspect of his life! Speaker 1: He was less stressed... His wife is happier....

26:50 His deadlines were being met..... It's a beautiful example of it. Speaker 1: Great Speaker 0: story. Speaker 1: I'll see if i can find the link and we could also put it into notes. Speaker 0: It's a great story, it is about power down at position realising the vulnerability of person who has more authority.

27:13 Speaker 0: If we can look up and see our bosses and bosses boss or whatever And seeing more than just hierarchy but see their vulnerability then we'll go a long way to creating relationships that actually are very good for us with those people who're above. Speaker 0: To see their need and their vulnerability is a gift to them, And be able help meet these needs represented by the vulnerability Is completely different mindset than We by default will take. Speaker 0: Yes, that's Speaker 1: right. Speaker 1: Most people don't operate like this.

27:52 Speaker 1: They just they feel disempowered or there you know affected by the boss in negative ways. Speaker 1: are they feel driven? Speaker 1: Or it already seems to be too much on their gender. Speaker 1: as you say they kind of winch especially wins-to-fellow Employees. Speaker 1: so its really it is involves a different kind of mindset and and recognizing opportunities To actually do something quite good not just for your own you know, sake of your career but also something that builds a relationship with the boss because you're probably going to get positive feedback.

28:24 Speaker 1: and in fact we talk a lot about relationships. Speaker 1: It's way they. Speaker 1: yeah We talked about bosses building relationship But this is away. Speaker 1: as an employee either You can build relationships Speaker 0: Yes And if there's one challenge or request Or invitation That would leave now that were completing This particular podcast it Is really inconsistent. Speaker 0: following on from what you've just said is to look at your manager and consider, What can you offer them?

28:56 Speaker 0: What could give that they're not even asking for this moment. Speaker 0: That you consider it would be useful of course attend the job that you promised or contracted to do then have obligations to fulfill. Speaker 0: thats essential. Speaker 0: And then if you want to create the relationship that would serve you best and serve them best, be consensually supportive. Speaker 0: Look for their vulnerability... ...and in particular you might like consider what information are they not getting?

29:27 Speaker 0: That could provide in a useful way easy access good retrieving interpret it organizing it disseminating. Speaker 0: I think that bring radio to mind when doing because This is the mind shift we need to manage up effectively.