0:08 Speaker 0: So welcome everyone to another edition of our podcast. Speaker 0: I'm Dr Stephen Aganta, here with Dr Paul Donovan and we're talking about all things power roaming through the incredible labyrinth and delightful, scary. Speaker 0: Today we're going to talk about some scary bits because as much people are attracted to power it seems glowing shiny. Speaker 0: there's also a cost of power. Speaker 0: what were gonna be discussing today is ways in which often underestimate or don't even realize costs Hit between the eyebrows by what?

0:45 Speaker 0: The reality of having power? Speaker 1: Yes, the reality of it is very different and today we want to give a kind of realistic job preview Of why its genuinely like to occupy positions of power because it's better that. Speaker 1: We know this before we aspire to it. Speaker 1: Vinay, you and I we want people to aspire to a positions of power. Speaker 1: We want that! Speaker 1: We want them. Speaker 1: then use it with discipline but better be aware the many costs and challenges come so they can count their cost rather than get their eyes wide open in despair or regret and fail at it, so yeah let's give a realistic job preview.

1:38 Speaker 0: Just to quote that rather concerning quote from Milton Friedman there are no such things as a free lunch! Speaker 0: So yes...there is the cost of power. Speaker 0: people often see the glamour over money prestige aspire. Speaker 0: And I certainly, as mentioned here is watching this old Ben-Hur movie from nineteen fifty nine bigger than Ben Hur because my Chinese wife Speaker 1: has Speaker 0: not seen it and so i wanted to introduce her. Speaker 0: Yeah very interesting.

2:13 Speaker 0: the Roman soldier who had grown up in Judea then went to Rome sort of rose through the ranks. Speaker 0: he's returning us take over from Sextus who was running Judea for many years and so it shows in the beginning. Speaker 0: he marches in with the legions and he goes through a corridor of men with his spears. Speaker 0: He's just savoring that moment, here I am! Speaker 0: Finally there is this position command power taking over from previous guy and delight and excitement within minutes starts encountering various limitations.

2:52 Speaker 0: as old mate grew up a prince amongst Jews or something is like, yeah well you know it's not quite so easy and not everybody here likes the Romans. Speaker 0: And then when Sextus says yes there are rebellions he said oh we just need to crush them. Speaker 0: and Sexts was like eh its little bit more complicated than that! Speaker 0: So very quickly the cost of The Role Of Power start becoming evident in that That was like in the first sort of fifteen minutes. Speaker 1: Oh, it's a great story Vinay and he goes to the first cost of power that I would like to mention.

3:30 Speaker 1: And as your roles increase you get more rank and authority in Power. Speaker 1: It is highly likely. Speaker 1: problems are no longer simple they're truly complex.

3:45 Speaker 1: There three levels of Problems Simple complicated and complex. Speaker 1: And it's highly likely that many of the big dilemmas and challenges you're facing will no longer be simple or even complicated, Speaker 1: i.e., Speaker 1: there won't be something you can do to fix Speaker 1: them.". Speaker 1: It's like oh we better put down the rebellion. Speaker 1: not so easy because if when you do that then this will happen! Speaker 1: That is awful... We must be aware.

4:17 Speaker 1: If you love just to get things done, if you want to fix this and fix that then... You better think again about taking roles with more rank on authority because the world is not easily fixable there. Speaker 1: You are managing polarities and dilemmas that won't go away And your job is to manage them moment by moment rather than fix them and have them gone. Speaker 1: First cost of power! Speaker 1: Your living in a complex world living in a more complex world. Speaker 0: And for idealists like you and I, it's disappointing because yes i think many people would like to see social change and justice done and they're like just need a strong leader who can do that but when you step into that leadership position yourself then there's often this experience, it is not so easy to make the crisp decisions and a lot of people can be offended.

5:11 Speaker 0: You've got maintain balance power in various ways. Speaker 0: our politicians as much we malign them. Speaker 0: its easier to criticise. Speaker 0: I often think yes i wonder what would do on their position? Speaker 0: And have deal with variety interest just my own opinion. Speaker 0: these are all things power and even people who, you know imagine oh I'm finally...I've got the role. Speaker 0: The executive role or even CEO role in yet the discovery that is nowhere near as easy or delightful they thought it might be?

5:45 Speaker 1: Yeah absolutely yes. Speaker 1: so well said! Speaker 1: And with visibility, like it's just you there is public scrutiny. Speaker 1: More people are watching You the higher you get. Speaker 1: The more People Are Watching You the more People That You'll Discover Won't Like You. Speaker 1: They're Going to Be Feel Freeer To Say that Because We Generally Feel Quite Free To Criticize Our Leaders And Hold Them To Standards That We Wouldn'T Even Dare Hold Ourselves Too. Speaker 1: So You Become A An Object Of Far Greater Scrutiny far more visible and that can be challenging.

6:26 Speaker 1: Your job, you could no longer work in private. Speaker 1: most of what you do will be done in public so can you work with others watching because your going to have a lot people watching you? Speaker 1: And thats tough. Speaker 1: that's tough and many of us get a bit glued up or self-conscious, lose the flow if we think others are watching when doing complex work.

6:52 Speaker 1: That is tricky! Speaker 0: Yeah, so People are very familiar with this of course in terms of celebrities who might not be into business role power But they got a lot of social and status-power. Speaker 0: Yep And there obviously Very visible kind of all the time no matter where they go They're recognized when people go up to them or they don't go out but There's a lot of pressure on that, and it is the same thing in way with person who has position role power. Speaker 0: They might not have public glory at level but they certainly within an organization are very visible.

7:23 Speaker 0: And I myself in smaller roles like power occupied by director or institute found this particularly what difficult people will always say to you, it's not always apparent what is going on. Speaker 0: like people will talk. Speaker 0: People gossip of course gossip something that has been around since the beginning time and as its role. Speaker 0: however in a position or power people are looking at each other talking with one another sometimes they say becomes distorted. Speaker 0: their opinions become facts then I have discovered being in this position very difficult because people develop all sorts perceptions which may be fit but solidified and of course in these days of cancelled culture that can easily go to a mass kind of canceling people.

8:10 Speaker 1: Yeah, yes the spotlight visib-and visibility brings great vulnerability with it. Speaker 1: you know I know myself Vinay just hearing you say that i now as part of...I'm in my sixties As You Are And It's Only Really In The Last Five And More Years Ten Years Maybe that I've frankly been comfortable enough to walk onto stage with larger groups and do my work with a group. Speaker 1: And so, because as Geoffrey Pfeiffer who writes on Power said most people don't want positions of power Because their fragile self-esteem could not cope with public failure.

8:53 Speaker 1: So we don't it. Speaker 1: But I remember some years ago, i started to realize.

9:07 Speaker 1: who can watch you fail. Speaker 1: And it's only because in these latter years that I am much more okay with those some people of the room thinking, That i'm doing a bad job and Some People In The Room will be Thinking i'm Doing A Great Job!

9:29 Speaker 1: I remember Dr. Speaker 1: D Martini, you may know him. Speaker 1: he travels the world and he speaks. Speaker 1: He tells this great story because i've read his work And been to some of his workshops that I admire here. Speaker 1: man He was lining up To see people at The end Of His workshop? Speaker 1: I don't Know. Speaker 1: There are told You This One Before Vinay but This Lady Comes Up Just Says It Was Fantastic And I Loved it And It Will Change My Life. Speaker 1: Thank you so much.

9:54 Speaker 1: And then this guy steps up and says, well that was probably one of the single most expensive waste of my time I've had. Speaker 1: This workshop is so expensive! Speaker 1: Honestly i can't think You know? Speaker 1: He's there...and he just thanks each person. Speaker 1: It turns out they're husband & wife. Speaker 1: There they are!

10:16 Speaker 1: Okay next Take no credit take no blame Next And we have to be compelled really, more like Dr John D Martini. Speaker 1: If you want more authority in your own dilemma because you will have more visibility and criticism

10:40 Speaker 0: Yeah I've had little bits of that where because i've done therapy processes and put them on the internet as examples to people taking a risk. Speaker 0: but I think it's useful you know. Speaker 0: so i was in Georgia country georgia teaching an institute there and a guy comes up to me says you look familiar i'm like. Speaker 0: yeah I don't think I met you before. Speaker 0: he's like are you the guy that does the therapy stuff on youtube? Speaker 0: Like, yeah. Speaker 0: He's like oh watch your stuff it's really great.

11:11 Speaker 0: so that was hilarious because that's someone appreciating me from other side of the world! Speaker 0: And then on the other hand another colleague was telling me that some of her colleagues who she was talking who saw my stuff were like very critical of what I did and they thought it was too much this or too much that. Speaker 0: So there is, you know? Speaker 0: You're in the public eye... Yes! Speaker 0: ...and there's going to be people putting down and people lifting your up. Speaker 0: And yeah its necessary That part of cost-of power anticipating at least and willingness not being buoyed by adoration and not being crushed by negative perceptions.

11:53 Speaker 1: Yes, take no credit. Speaker 1: Take No blame it's just a. I have that as a mantra in my head. Speaker 1: The more stages are get up on the more visible? Speaker 1: I become. Speaker 1: take no create at taking a blame and There is limitations to that truth But i want to acknowledge That. Speaker 1: but It Is useful for me yeah. Speaker 0: so let's talk about the social facilitation effect Which is part of this. Speaker 0: you Want To say Speaker 1: something About that? Speaker 1: Yes, the social facilitation effect is simply the notion and The idea that with more people watching you it can get harder to work well.

12:29 Speaker 1: Now this is not true of really simple tasks. Speaker 1: That doesn't seem to be affected too much. Speaker 1: Simple repetitive tasks no problem but if its a more complex task even having to do serious analysis or You know Do therapy with someone on stage in front of a large group or present complex ideas? Speaker 1: Yeah, it can be your real challenge to function well under the gaze of an audience. Speaker 1: and If you want power welcome to that And learn how to manage it. Speaker 1: Because if you want to have more power, If you want be able to exercise more authority To touch more people.

13:10 Speaker 1: To influence more people and add value You will also learn how work in front of others. Speaker 1: It's very freeing to do that But it is scary In the early days Speaker 0: That's right. Speaker 0: And I guess another thing we should mention is that it's not only a cost to the person who has power, but there are also costs for people around them—the family and possibly friends have collateral damage because they're drawn into the limelight. Speaker 0: You were telling me your story before about what was it?

13:47 Speaker 0: A pastor or a pastor's wife or something... Speaker 1: Yes! Speaker 0: Yeah Speaker 1: yeah…that's right….I knew a fellow.

13:56 Speaker 1: He was a pastor and then he got married.

14:01 Speaker 1: And they really loved each other, she wasn't that familiar with him in the context of his role You know? Speaker 1: She came into town. Speaker 1: actually They fell in love quite quickly. Speaker 1: It's a lovely story. Speaker 1: Only here is the difficulty...she discovered That being a pastors wife can actually bring a whole lot of attention to you. Speaker 1: and in their town, it wasn't as small. Speaker 1: It was very large country-town. Speaker 1: The pastor's wife had...and there were lots church goers who have a lot visibility.

14:40 Speaker 1: She discovered that people are interested what she wore at the church the Princess Diana effect. Speaker 1: It was like, what the hell you know? Speaker 1: And she realized oh my goodness I've chosen this man because i just loved him and but I didn't quite realize that I was actually having...I was going to be in collateral damage too a husband who had a whole lot of visibility You know. Speaker 1: so That's really interesting piece. Speaker 1: There is collateral damage if your with someone whose got high visibility.

15:17 Speaker 0: So let's move on and talk about the golden handcuffs because that's another aspect of their cost-of-power. Speaker 0: Yes, yeah

15:26 Speaker 1: yes now it's Golden handcuffs. Speaker 1: It's only because yes they're golden. Speaker 1: There is a lot of perks maybe more money And in fact research shows at those people with this scene more senior level often are healthier interestingly Than those lower levels. Speaker 1: so there's gold that your time can actually feel like it's under someone else' control, ironically enough. Speaker 1: And I've worked with enough executives to know there are many days when they appear to be booked back-to-back for meetings and then need go home get their job done!

16:06 Speaker 1: They might have a family or kids And they get their job done between nine o'clock and ten thirty or much later. Speaker 1: I knew one HR director who developed a habit of getting up at four thirty every day so that he could get his three hours of work in before you had to go to work, attend meetings...and did it for years!

16:35 Speaker 1: It was the cost. Speaker 1: It's a golden handcuff in that you can feel your autonomy. Speaker 1: In some regards, Your day-to-day schedule becomes packed and out of control. Speaker 0: Yeah because then the bigger picture it seems like you've got power And you could make decisions on that in principle level. Speaker 0: but there On the objective day to Day moment by Monument Level its Like A Golden Trap where as You say time is kind of not your own and people are always making demands.

17:05 Speaker 0: if you, yeah the only time that you might have it's four to thirty in the morning.

17:12 Speaker 0: Another aspect we should talk about at this point kind of implicit requirement in a role of power to build your power networks, to maintain the relationships. Speaker 0: Because let's face it when you're in a position of power people are jealous. Speaker 0: they're competitive They want your position and they wanna destroy you. Speaker 0: You've got enemies. Speaker 0: that is pretty much inevitable In politics. Speaker 0: thats very evident And Australia Prime Minister mid term can be turfed out.

17:42 Speaker 0: British Prime Minister just got turfed out. Speaker 0: So this does actually happen and it's a real danger, so people in positions of power have to really put some time and work into maintaining these various types of relationships to be able to allow them.

18:02 Speaker 0: And

18:06 Speaker 1: yet it's absolutely essential. Speaker 1: It appears that the higher one gets, The more vulnerable one becomes from the shifting ground of alliances around them. Speaker 1: I mean here in Australia CEOs Turn over more frequently than executive team members or even middle managers. Speaker 1: So they get asked it They get us and i want to promise you when a CEO gets ousted Or someone in position power Its because Someone has made moves someone has gained the trust of more senior people, say The Board and in such a way then to create doubt about their competency.

18:49 Speaker 1: I think Speaker 0: you've got an example of that? Speaker 1: Yeah i do! Speaker 1: And um...I remember working with this particular executive team for about eight months actually, and I was doing research with them. Speaker 1: And i was recording their executive team meetings and then interviewing a number of them between those meetings...and I'd been doing that for six months!

19:13 Speaker 1: You know my main concern. Speaker 1: as I was looking at the recordings much of great interest was happening in these meetings. Speaker 1: I was doing research thinking, I think the biggest problem here is potential Speaker 1: boredom.". Speaker 1: They didn't look that bored but I was reading The Transcripts But little did i know...I then turned up to have a meeting with one executive team members there and said so where is Bob? Speaker 1: That's just making up my name. Speaker 1: Where is Bob the CEO?

19:42 Speaker 1: And they say oh no he has gone! Speaker 1: What do you mean? Speaker 1: he had gone? Speaker 1: His boss from Asia who worked out of Singapore came three days ago, had a three-quarter hour meeting with him and then the local CEO was walked. Speaker 1: And I said wow how did that happen? Speaker 1: We as a team didn't really like him much, and we didn't have a lot of confidence in him. Speaker 1: And we had pretty good relationships with those people in Singapore actually very good! Speaker 1: And we have strategically built these relationships so that ultimately the relationship when they became a collective meant to be our CEO.

20:35 Speaker 1: And that's what happened. Speaker 1: You see, if you're going to be in that role of the CEO... ...you've got to look at your power alliances and must be looking strategic about relationships with those above you…. Speaker 1: …in an executive team or a board or corporation because there are others who might consider you inappropriate but can make fundamental moves to unseat you. Speaker 1: It's not uncommon. Speaker 1: so if you want this is the cost of leadership, If you want positions with more authority and power You're going need get politically savvy And your gonna need map relationships around you.

21:17 Speaker 1: Get strategic about which ones you need develop whether like them or not.

21:24 Speaker 1: Which Speaker 0: leads us. Speaker 0: another corollary of power which people become Speaker 1: paranoid.

21:32 Speaker 0: People become paranoid and yeah. Speaker 1: Yeah, Speaker 0: I don't know who to trust And you can you've seen that both historically in terms of leaders? Speaker 0: and and actually You know in the current day and in executive positions here because The reality is you don't really know who do trust so that the paranoia That develops becomes kind of overblown. Speaker 0: either there's too much sort of naivety Oh yes people are appreciating me or this paranoia, oh my god everybody's out to get me.

22:02 Speaker 0: and then people in that those positions of power they can act very defensively. Speaker 0: In terms of making conservative decisions or making sure they don't offend anyone And not really using their power. Speaker 0: They're using the pound quite a stagnant way which is also problematic because Power requires a certain amount of boldness. Speaker 0: Otherwise you just get trapped by all these expectations and eyes on You and back-to-back meetings and everything we are talking about. Speaker 0: so it It's part of the growth.

22:31 Speaker 0: I guess it is necessary that we are going to talk about in a minute, power is not just something with lovely trappings or just something kind of terrible where you're always under the public gaze. Speaker 0: Power also, it's fundamentally something which can be used for good. Speaker 0: but even more than just a social aspect its like personally useful to know yourself more fully. Speaker 0: as therapist I'm interested in this growing and being fuller your self. Speaker 0: there was that opportunity.

22:59 Speaker 0: so each of these dangers talking about today, we're not just being kind of scary. Speaker 0: We want to firstly alert people so that they go in sober because let's face it very few managerial trainings or leadership programs even or MBAs really address the issue of power and what it involves and how it works and the cost of it as we are discussing today And What To Do About It. Speaker 0: So...we want People Go In Open-Eyed but also don't wanna discourage you either. Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

23:32 Speaker 1: Thank you that puts it built really well and balances out our message. Speaker 1: This is not a message of discouragement this as I'm a messenger counting the cost. Speaker 1: If you want more senior roles for instance You're not after an easy life And you're going to have to develop and probably invest enormous amounts of time.

23:52 Speaker 1: You know and That's the case. Speaker 1: so and i've had friends myself who some of whom Have shot high and I can see the cost of they're often hard to get too. Speaker 1: They don't respond quickly, their preoccupied with Their busy lives. Speaker 1: another friends who've decided to not do that all together And just have a much simpler life.

24:18 Speaker 1: and That's A very different choice. Speaker 1: And either one, we'd recommend that you need to attend your growth. Speaker 1: But in particular... Growth brings vulnerability. Speaker 1: there's no safe way to grow.

24:41 Speaker 1: There is not a great way to be safe and it brings visibility, vulnerability pressure And if you increase your power, others who'll want your job. Speaker 1: That's what it will also bring Speaker 0: to that right? Speaker 0: So let's talk about a couple more things. Speaker 0: about the price. Speaker 0: so there is also the addictive quality of Power The Addictive aspect of rank. Speaker 0: What can you say about that? Speaker 1: yeah It's proven phenomena that once you get to experience the perks of power, they can become really difficult.

25:38 Speaker 1: walk in and get all your food, drink. Speaker 1: And experience that having a personal assistant at work who might even become kind of a concierge for you getting all sorts things done it's remarkable. Speaker 1: It can be very painful to let go. Speaker 1: Even to volunteer or retire Can precipitate genuine grief In those who have had the trappings of power. Speaker 1: And so it's a great idea to practice, you know your detaching from in...the need of it. Speaker 1: You might get to travel beautifully or you might Have people fawning or deferring but It is really useful thing not To develop an attachment Because it will go!

26:31 Speaker 1: It almost certainly Will pass. Speaker 1: Then comes another life. Speaker 0: That's right, very difficult and this is almost like a kind of spiritual quality. Speaker 0: we're talking about non-grasping or non craving that kind of Buddhist philosophy for instance. Speaker 0: I guess it behooves people in power to be practicing that whilst they are in power because as you say at some point its going even just retirement. Speaker 0: the cost of letting go was also pretty high. Speaker 1: Yes, it's one of the reasons why I recommend to really senior people that they do things in their life That can put them in a low-ranked position Because if you've been in senior positions for a long time You can create a life where your always experiencing rank in one way or another and maybe you've built up wealth, then experience rank all the time.

27:27 Speaker 1: Then get addicted to it. Speaker 1: so I recommend people do things with low-rank like learn an instrument have a young person teach that I remember, I'd been working with executive teams some time and... And i decided oh..I haven't surfed in years many years. Speaker 1: I used to surf as a young guy and ummm.... I thought ,i need a lesson! Speaker 1: ..and I thought Oh okay I'm gonna have an eighteen-year old guy teach me .And I was in my fifties ...and uh...and he's going tell me what to do !

28:02 Speaker 1: It was well it was a liberating experience. Speaker 1: He is really good but I really though I'm in a low-ranked position. Speaker 1: He's the teacher, and he was comfortable as anything!

28:30 Speaker 1: to be and I recommend take low-ranked roles so as not get out of touch with how most people are living. Speaker 0: So because that leads, the last thing kind related this is what can called The Death Zone which where a situation when people in power become insulated they're in bubble tell them what's going on, they're surrounded by sicker fans. Speaker 0: And part of the complexity that we've discussed is as Fefa says he has a mastermind.com class and also said in his book... He recommends you don't tell your boss the truth because it's like the boss doesn't want to hear him!

29:21 Speaker 0: It won't be good for YOU. Speaker 0: and you are aspiring to power. Speaker 0: I have experienced this because i'm Mr Authenticity gestalt and that's what I believe in, it is what I practice. Speaker 0: That's what they teach and see the power of authenticity so very much a core value. Speaker 0: yet when you come to the domain or power becomes more difficult because instances where i have been authentic hasn't gone well for me which Sort of seems to steer towards what Pfeffer says. Speaker 0: On the other hand, we have this problem that then people in power are on these so-called death zones.

30:00 Speaker 0: So what's your comment on that Paul? Speaker 1: Yeah I think it's a really important...I like you and encourage leaders to be authentic. Speaker 1: tell the truth. Speaker 1: But if your boss asked for feedback You'd have to be sure That your boss can handle Because bosses these days like to hear themselves asking for feedback. Speaker 1: They know they should ask for feedback But whether they can handle or not I this is where we need to be Not naive and as Viper says mostly giving your boss really honest feedback Is just a terrible thing to do because most of them don't Really want to know.

30:42 Speaker 1: one can't handle it when they hear it, and then you'll end up sabotaging yourself You know? Speaker 1: so it's uh? Speaker 1: It's a really. Speaker 1: It's a really tricky thing. Speaker 1: I was just coaching someone recently actually who is asking me about whether they should go for this job or not and there will get. Speaker 1: There was a restructure And he said to me, I'm not sure I want the job You know? Speaker 1: I'm NOT sure i want This job in. Speaker 1: it feels like this restructure isn't serving to my good and and I Was Asking him say well what do you want now?

31:14 Speaker 1: What do you really Want? Speaker 1: your must be honest About that with yourself before you go into negotiations. Speaker 1: Anyway, that and it sounds like an obvious thing to say And perhaps it was although in that context It Was they were really more focused on all of the moving pieces around them? Speaker 1: What role is going be what we're gonna get? Speaker 1: so They did go into those negotiations With a little more assertion asking what and no, this wasn't going to be good. Speaker 1: And know I didn't want that.

31:48 Speaker 1: two weeks later the boss said yeah okay well then That's that? Speaker 1: I don't you in the role anymore either. Speaker 1: In fact You were right. Speaker 1: i'm gonna make your redundant. Speaker 1: So my client was made redundant given a big payout I have To say but simply because The bus lost the patience. Speaker 1: try like do you Want the job or not? Speaker 1: And I want someone who just wants to come in here and want it. Speaker 1: You don't appear wanted, i'm done with this conversation.

32:14 Speaker 1: In fact im making you redundant. Speaker 1: That was last week. Speaker 1: So for my client actually its the best thing that's ever happened To me. Speaker 1: Im convinced thats a really good thing But at same token a surprise when you start being really honest with your boss about what she wanted. Speaker 1: So think carefully about it, think carefully! Speaker 0: Well, I guess that we can point people to our other episodes. Speaker 0: We've discussed feedback because it's an important ingredient in this skillful giving and certainly receiving feedback.

32:49 Speaker 0: And one of the things is you could create a climate of safety when your boss has got power That people know they can talk about. Speaker 0: You require all those growth mindset Developing self-esteem Managing anxiety Creating internal conditions where You yourself can create a climate of at least authenticity and safety. Speaker 0: Otherwise, you're in the death zone... ...of the sycophants and people agreeing with you which clearly don't want yet to be able to handle something different?

33:26 Speaker 0: You have to have certain kind of steadiness. Speaker 1: Yes absolutely! Speaker 1: The cost of leadership is that you need genuinely look for feedback because most people will not want to give it to you. Speaker 1: And even when you ask, they're probably gonna tell the truth. Speaker 1: so that's Speaker 0: right Speaker 1: yeah and its dangerous to be a leader in living in surrounded with rich feedback then make really bad decisions.

33:57 Speaker 0: So finally I think we wanna wrap up by saying That even though we're talking about this cost. Speaker 0: We are still encouraging people to step into roles of power and we were discussing before about how perhaps to generalize the current generation, The new generation that people who are coming to adulthood now Who in their twenties? Speaker 0: Are very different than then twenty years ago or forty years ago. Speaker 0: when we will come into our twenties because there's no longer this sort of exclusive focus on the career track, young people are questioning what do I really want?

34:34 Speaker 0: bossed around for twenty years, do I want to boss other people around? Speaker 0: So that often leads people to step back. Speaker 0: And in some ways perhaps thats a good thing. Speaker 0: reviewing values as the social change on the other hand it can be an issue because we need leadership positions and otherwise just the people who are kind of particularly ambitious and want all trappings. Speaker 0: they're the ones going to go with them. Speaker 0: i remember when i was teaching there And I was talking to Japanese people about the politics.

35:06 Speaker 0: So, it's curious particularly in terms of ecology and such... ...and they were saying oh no most people here are not interested in politics. Speaker 0: now ironically Now we've there's a strong arm leader in Japan, but what they were saying was that yeah generally people are not interested in politics They don't want to participate in it. Speaker 0: They certainly Don't wanna be in the leadership position because of the vulnerability and things That we're talking about before And so that just leaves at an open empty space?

35:34 Speaker 0: And and that's not a good thing either way. Speaker 0: So we want to encourage people We want to encode you as listener to be interested in power or learn about her to become skilled knowledgeable confident and to step into positions of power. Speaker 0: So we want to be clear in discussing with these costs, where we're not discussing it as a way put people off but in fact encourage people. Speaker 1: Yes! Speaker 1: We want more good people who will wanna be disciplined To want power and we want those people to last when they get to the job.

36:09 Speaker 1: And there's more chance you'll last if your aware of costs, today were looking at cost power so that you can count it. Speaker 1: be aware its a big challenge not being shocked or surprised. Speaker 1: bring your best to it then you will thrive. Speaker 1: but there is a cost.

36:33 Speaker 0: Very good. Speaker 0: Okay, well thanks again. Speaker 0: Always great talking to you Paul Speaker 1: and... You too Vinay. Speaker 1: it's great talking! Speaker 1: And we'll see you next time. Speaker 0: That's right. Speaker 0: Thanks for listening. Speaker 0: We'll see her in the next time.