0:07 Speaker 1: So we'd like to welcome you to our podcast, the Power Compass Podcast. Speaker 1: I'm Dr Steve Venaganta and i'm here with dr Paul Donovan. Speaker 0: We're both Speaker 1: fascinated excited Thrilled by the topic of power .We've got PhDs in this subject ,we have written on it And were'e there to give many episodes. Speaker 1: that's a plan On The Topic Of Power Exploring lots of different facets different theoretical understandings, different philosophical understandings. Speaker 1: Different practical understandings because we want to empower you To be able to Understand power and use it more wisely More skillfully And more successfully.

0:52 Speaker 0: Absolutely. Speaker 0: You see where the contention that power is not discussed as much As most sensibly. Speaker 0: would We consider power to be like the electricity that runs through us and the roles that elevate one person from the other. Speaker 0: And we want give some visibility to that electricity, what's actually making a difference? Speaker 0: That is Power! Speaker 0: It's the central question in leadership of any kind Personal Leadership, leadership in roles people take that might elevate them above other people.

1:36 Speaker 0: in those roles, the question of power is central. Speaker 0: The question whether you exercise good leadership largely rests upon whether you have consciously and skillfully used the power in that role as effectively as you could. Speaker 0: so That's why we're so delighted to be talking about it. Speaker 0: We are absolutely wrapped And...we had this first question And that is why don't we talk about, Why Is Not Power Talked About Very Much? Speaker 0: You know and it's not. Speaker 0: In fact Dr. Speaker 0: Julie Dimon who wrote Power A User's Guide says in modern day America sex is easier to talk about than power.

2:25 Speaker 0: It the last taboo. Speaker 0: It is the last taboo, but it doesn't serve us to be a taboo. Speaker 0: And so I don't know why do you think Vinay? Speaker 0: It's so difficult for power and whether someone has power or not-power To...to be something that a constant conversation lands upon Or an interviewer might raise. Speaker 0: Why does that happen Vinay Do You Think? Speaker 1: Well, I think because really power is the context in which we've all been hurt. Speaker 1: Sometimes traumatized...

3:02 ...because we have all been in power relationships where we had less power.... ...because as children down-power. Speaker 1: it's our first down-powered relationship and of course not only with parents but with the adults around us in general, and specifically school environments. Speaker 1: And even within our peers at schools there's different grades or pecking orders that exist. Speaker 1: so all of this has been subject to power as a time when they were vulnerable... ...and yes often it is being used against us which are very painful or debilitating.

3:37 Speaker 1: Often, we develop this attitude towards power. Speaker 1: Is it something bad or is that used to hurt other people? Speaker 1: And its natural to carry the attitude forward in life. Speaker 1: so I think thats a big influence and not just childhood. Speaker 1: also In adult world and our relationships there's lot of situations where again We can be hurt by power bosses who you know summarily fire us different kinds of injustice. Speaker 1: pretty well everyone's had those experiences.

4:07 Speaker 1: So power becomes associated with something fearful, with something negative or painful. Speaker 1: so I think it is not too surprising from that point of view. Speaker 1: a lot people avoid talking about it. Speaker 0: Yeah Will said you have reminded me sometimes when i am teaching power to corporate groups and a slide, an image of lots of different boxes and pictures from everything. Speaker 0: From Tom Cruise to Ahama Ka to A Tiger To religious leader...to a forest. Speaker 0: And I ask people which one are these images?

4:50 Speaker 0: they relate to power? Speaker 0: It's..and i'm always curious the diversity in this room. Speaker 0: Power is such a subjective thing. Speaker 0: how we hold the notion of power in our minds Is quite distinct and personal to us. Speaker 0: But when I ask about the feelings they have, what would you say if someone has power? Speaker 0: Like most people said They don't like that. Speaker 0: They are uncomfortable with it and they don't like to think of themselves as having power. Speaker 0: There's a minority that do, but most actually aren't very comfortable with that idea.

5:33 Speaker 0: And you know this is the. Speaker 0: I'm going to introduce our first power concept here and um Power over power width power two and there's uh, there's A reactive and a creative version Of all those three that we'll talk about later on. Speaker 0: But most first connections of power is because someone has exercised Power over us. Speaker 0: But it doesn't have to be the only way power is exercised, but in fact its places that are most memorable for us as you've said. Speaker 0: Power over!

6:09 Speaker 0: You know? Speaker 0: That power with... The ability to exercise power with a collective Power that's generated by joining with people to achieve something the momentum. Speaker 0: That's created, that's a Remarkable thing. Speaker 0: and they're power too like the power that comes from no having of a mission A quest of some kind The power that can flow through us when we are driven By wanting To make a contribution. Speaker 0: there is a power that Comes When We have the power TO power.

6:45 Speaker 0: So yeah, it's exciting. Speaker 1: And I think that highlights some of your and my personal values which is we carry into this podcast but were not just interested in discussing philosophy or organizational practice what was certainly interesting helping people become more skillful and knowledgeable. Speaker 1: fundamentally though empowerment that are about, you know contributing to a better world. Speaker 1: There's larger vision and we're interested in how what we do in this podcast and how we support people can assist in the development of A Better World –a much bigger vision even than organizational visions or personal vision so that something I think drives you an eye?

7:34 Speaker 0: Yes! Speaker 0: And absolutely thank-you for the ever-present notion of power, it is really so alive between us. Speaker 0: Power is running between every interaction and where usually remain Somewhat unconscious of it, but if you consider in the most obvious cases where? Speaker 0: You might have for instance in the context were I work in a corporate world someone might give feedback to somebody else or Someone might run a meeting or hire someone or Choose to be silent in a meeting. Speaker 0: Or interrupts Somebody.

8:20 Speaker 0: they're all power moves. Speaker 0: They are All Power Moves. Speaker 0: even stopping and listening can Be A very Powerful a big power move. Speaker 0: And so there's nothing we're doing which doesn't happen, especially when we looked at influence in any way where looking to use the currency of power to do so it one form or another. Speaker 0: So I'm wanting too and i know that both are wanting to wake people up how you using power around you When you notice suddenly have more power get sit down with friends for instance and you notice I've got more money than they do.

9:03 Speaker 0: Oh, i feel a little elevated here You know. Speaker 0: or maybe you're sitting with friends And you realize these guys have all of them have got more Money Than I Do. Speaker 0: and houses yeah and bigger Houses and nicer cars and go on better holidays? Speaker 0: You Know. Speaker 0: and suddenly you might be feeling less powerful You know, so these things can affect us. Speaker 0: We're going to talk about in subsequent episodes the importance of building personal power which is more robust More portable?

9:36 Speaker 0: More resilient to context. Speaker 0: But even then most of us will walk into an interactional context and notice oh To use your language I'm like am i down or up here?

9:51 Speaker 1: That's right. Speaker 1: There is always that little ranking which goes on, I think a mammalian thing whose whereon the pecking order. Speaker 1: and yeah you want to come in. Speaker 1: because he mentioned personal power. Speaker 1: like we can simplify some ways of power into number different dimensions. Speaker 1: one as your say is personal power. Speaker 1: people cannot have personal powers but not necessarily other kinds. Speaker 1: However, personal power can easily spill over into acquiring for instance role-power.

10:22 Speaker 1: That's another classical type of the position that is not so much about a person but it's resources and roles they exercise. Speaker 1: And also when you're discussing who has got the house or income You are talking about other kind of powers. Speaker 1: we could call the power status which isn't necessarily just personal, and it's not necessarily to do with a role. Speaker 1: It is more to deal with social perception yet its very significant. Speaker 1: There are complex ways in which these three types of power can interact or augment each other Or they exist almost separately.

11:03 Speaker 1: so someone cannot have particular role-power that powerful personally, and yet they may have a lot of status. Speaker 1: And you know not even enjoy it much. Speaker 1: so there's kind of analysis which we won't go into here but in subsequent episodes about these. Speaker 1: I mean theres the fourth type power because you mentioned Power Width Which is the power collective. Speaker 1: So thats also another dimension of power. Speaker 1: We want to just introduce people this different dimensions And Speaker 0: I think that's great.

11:37 Speaker 0: Thank you, Speaker 1: I want to say one more thing which is Yeah it's an issue because i work with especially in therapy With individuals and couples and families particularly so for instance In a couple. Speaker 1: this issue of power Is quite significant often Because People usually come into a relationship with some kind of power differential. Speaker 1: now that might be knowledge. Speaker 1: someone's got a PhD and Someone else has just gotta you know undergraduate degree or maybe someone doesn't even have been to university.

12:12 Speaker 1: That that's one kind of differential. Speaker 1: another differential is when people come in two relationships. Speaker 1: We're different economic resources, whether it be from their family or they've got a business.

12:25 Speaker 1: So when I'm working with couples these are always things that often difficult to deal With and can be sources of conflict. Speaker 1: They flare up but to be able to talk about them And successfully address them is something A lot of couples don't have the resource for. Speaker 1: I mean you know let's say woman moves into a man's house. Speaker 1: He's very hard working and quite successful, he works really-really hard for it. Speaker 1: And he bought a house in his thirties...his partner.

12:59 Speaker 1: She is kind of easy going. Speaker 1: she has got the job that ticks along gives her lots free time so she lives at home. Speaker 1: It'a bit bone of contention if he says anything that indicates it's his house because she wants to fill its r-house but is not our house. Speaker 1: I mean, It's in His name. Speaker 1: He earned it and you know there a lot of stuff goes on with that. Speaker 1: so Power isn't just something that needs to be addressed in terms of organizational position or what's happening at work.

13:31 Speaker 1: It is also very much in the interpersonal, social and family sphere as well. Speaker 1: even different members of a family will have different power The thing about houses are cars, different aunts or uncles or brothers or sisters. Speaker 1: As they develop into world you get the power differential within your family And it creates divisions conflicts or tensions. Speaker 0: Wow great examples. Speaker 0: And I see this in a corporate setting. Speaker 0: In fact, I was working with the team not so long ago where...

14:05 The CEO of this executive team had come from different culture and it's actually European and here is Australia. Speaker 0: But there were some members who have been on that team for years Long before they came. Speaker 0: What's more, a couple of those members were highly articulate. Speaker 0: Had higher qualifications could really speak so fluently and in terms of status as you mentioned or sometimes I think social power. Speaker 0: there was kind an interesting little battle going here because the CEO this quite spoken European fellow but then you've got others who every now again are pulling on their whereby they can speak much more easily and fluently.

15:00 Speaker 0: They make reference to their multiple degrees, And there is a certain kind of power that they're utilizing To stand up too or challenge Or dismiss the formal authority power That the CEO was standing in. Speaker 0: So it's a subtle game And especially if in this case, the formal CEO was looking to establish certain norms in a team about how they talk with each other. Speaker 0: But there is one of these members who didn't think that normal so good. Speaker 0: he kept breaking it and his particular by look at their phone during meeting.

15:43 Speaker 0: It became really kind of standoff here. Speaker 0: you just got different kinds power playing off on another. Speaker 0: I remember when i came into work with this team, When explained that there was different kinds of power and they're being used in the room without anyone being wrong about it. Speaker 0: It's such a relief for us! Speaker 0: That is what we are seeing because The body of people who were quiet or pulled between one another Not sure whats happening They couldn't give language to them.

16:17 Speaker 0: The power was at work. Speaker 0: Power was present in the room being utilized and drawn upon, both formally in the role but informally socially via status. Speaker 0: that made the interaction of field in which they're working very complicated. Speaker 1: Yeah, and you are making it visible by what your doing. Speaker 1: so thats partly why we want to do is put dust on. Speaker 1: people can see a bit more clearly whats going on understand it therefore be able deal with. Speaker 1: yes Speaker 0: I wanted help make it visible.

16:52 Speaker 0: It's my role as a facilitator, but my knowledge of power and experience working with it helped give language to do that.

17:05 Speaker 0: Very helpful.

17:08 Speaker 1: So what should we discuss next? Speaker 1: Power of paradox or leadership moments...

17:18 Speaker 0: I think we've talked about the fact that the power is present within us and very visible between us.

17:27 Speaker 0: And let's edit out this little bit of Puba where i'm just sort of thinking about why does it matter? Speaker 0: Maybe, maybe should go to that. Speaker 1: Sure

17:44 Speaker 0: This a relatively short episode but may be good episode too.

17:51 Speaker 0: Yeah! Speaker 0: Where do you think this leads to Vinay? Speaker 0: why does it matter? Speaker 0: Why do we want to talk about these things? Speaker 0: because every organization, Every relationship is full of power. Speaker 0: There's power dynamics and there's power flowing through virtue of the interactions And our charge Our responsibility. Speaker 0: in fact what you an Ivernay are trying To Do In this podcast on The Podcaster Come Is help people understand that power is being used and to use it more consciously in service of something worthy.

18:32 Speaker 0: And if you want to be someone who can utilize power as something worthy, into some worthy end then please listen to these podcasts because we're going to share about how to use. Speaker 0: It requires skill and it requires depth, then it requires a willingness to self-reflect. Speaker 1: Exactly! Speaker 0: You know. Speaker 0: because using it you and I have sometimes said power is like chainsaw... ...it can do some terrible things or could do great things. Speaker 0: so its good to know if i've got chain saw on while going around a little bit..

19:13 ..it's gonna hurt people when we're not using it consciously And it will also be used toward poor end. Speaker 0: So we want these episodes to be a journey where you, the listener and viewer would start love to notice how your using power.

19:37 Speaker 1: Okay so I think that next thing is good for introducing is something called the power of paradox. Speaker 1: This is something that we're going to go much more into subsequent episodes, this provides an understanding with quizzical question of what goes on when people attain positions of power. Speaker 1: Even people who seem well-intentioned, who seemed to be good people something kind...goes a bit awry and there's all sorts of phenomena like the BMW phenomenon you know? Speaker 1: People driving BMWs seem to have less sensitivity to pedestrians.

20:12 Speaker 1: What is Speaker 1: that?! Speaker 1: So yeah paraproducts unlock some of these things. Speaker 1: so we're just gonna headline it now You can Speaker 0: explain it. Speaker 0: And the person who made this particular idea famous was Professor Ducker Keltner from Berkeley. Speaker 0: After decades of research, he ultimately wrote a relatively small book that just in a really pithy way explained when we get elevated and rank one way or another by you know, jumping in a BMW driving or even experimentally he could help people prime them.

20:48 Speaker 0: He called them to feel powerful by asking him think about people who are for instance way less well off than they were and as result that started to fill power full. Speaker 0: And when the start of the field powerful they started behaving really weird ways. Speaker 0: it was in fact biochemical The more we start to feel above, the more we started feeling powerful by contrast in comparison with others. Speaker 0: We actually have less ability to read emotions of other's. Speaker 0: We think that our judgement suddenly becomes more effective and greater control than we do over other circumstances.

21:31 Speaker 0: all sorts of strange things happen to us but as professor Keltner makes clear all of this can be outsmarted. Speaker 0: It doesn't have to be that way. Speaker 0: But for many of us when we get elevated in power, We fall preyed the power paradox and so we're going to spend time In subsequent episodes looking at what it is And how to outsmart? Speaker 0: The Power Paradox because This Is one Of the reasons why we Get So befuddled by Looking At People in Very Senior Roles behaving so Strangely.

22:05 Speaker 0: Often in organizations, I sometimes will be working with a group that they're not the executive team. Speaker 0: They were below and I'll say have you noticed at The People Above You seem kind of weird? Speaker 0: And then there's these laughs...and now i see nods everywhere because it can make us are bit weird. Speaker 0: when we get senior really elevated We start to find-we don't read people well..We start to be awkward in conversations And we tend to see more of the world through our own lens, unless you really can outsmart it.

22:43 Speaker 0: So that's one things were going talk about and wanted introduce that in this first episode. Speaker 0: say power is a fascinating topic that's right

22:58 Speaker 1: and you know if you understand what goes on, you'll understand the pitfalls. Speaker 1: And then you can also do something different—you don't have to get weird but it requires some consciousness which is I guess the next thing we want to talk about being conscious of power using power for good use skillfully. Speaker 1: a lot things are going episodes to help you do that, to help equip with the knowledge and skills so that you can use power in ways which are effective and beneficial.

23:31 Speaker 1: And not always get people on your side but as much is possible work alongside with the people who are under you.

23:41 Speaker 0: Yeah absolutely we're going be helping utilize power consciously You know, so you can do more than just power over. Speaker 0: not all power over is bad by the way But you can power over. Speaker 0: You can power with. Speaker 0: you can Power to but you can Do it skillfully and With heart? Speaker 0: And in later Episodes we'll be talking about the hundred and fifty percent principle So will be talking For the health of this field. Speaker 0: it's interactional space between us. Speaker 0: If you're the one with more rank then take more responsibility.

24:25 Speaker 0: We'll talk about why that so important and how to do. Speaker 0: It we're going to talk about The role of anxiety. Speaker 0: that if you have persistent unexamined Anxiety, than you may more likely fall prey to the power paradox. Speaker 0: So it's one of the requirements of utilizing Power Well is to live profoundly examined life and if you do so, your are most likely lead well using power beautifully. Speaker 0: that self-awareness critical these some things coming in subsequent episodes.

25:04 Speaker 1: That's right. Speaker 1: It is pretty exciting. Speaker 1: Fundamentally, it isn't even a question of like do I have power or want power? Speaker 1: Its really the question asking where do i already had influence? Speaker 1: because everybody has some kind of influence in their life over someone and something whether its be formal situation or informal situations. Speaker 1: Many people many of us are parents. Speaker 1: so my case grandparents you know we have a lot of influence the people in our charge or the people who are dependent on us.

25:35 Speaker 1: So this is really for everyone to understand, you know how do we exert that? Speaker 1: and also importantly in terms of feedback? Speaker 1: We're going to be talking about this as well...how feedback works and understanding ourselves more fully because How can I be more aware of how other people experience me? Speaker 1: You were just telling a story before about that, Paul. Speaker 1: Perhaps it's illustrative... ...about the client you're working with and identity thing. Speaker 0: Yeah!

26:06 Speaker 0: It was an notion. Speaker 0: We've been talking about it off-air when we worked on a client who was processing their feedback via a three sixty tool And notice. Speaker 0: the people who had given her feedback really didn't see her as a people person, but actually is gifted and strong around strategy results orientation and decisiveness. Speaker 0: And I was encouraging her to Speaker 1: own Speaker 0: The power that comes from being really gifted in those things rather than using it unconsciously.

26:46 Speaker 0: she and never feeling like she was good enough because she is constantly failing at being a people person. Speaker 0: Now, of course it's essential to build peoples skills but her real special source...her real gifting was around occupying the space around strategy And for Her then She can utilize natural authority and power she has when it comes to seeing complex issues, knowing the way forward. Speaker 0: And this is going to help her use her power more effectively, more consciously.

27:24 Speaker 0: This is a path we'd want you in listening for these podcasts. Speaker 0: It's a continual process of gaining wisdom at high levels than our own behavior, and how we're using our power effectively. Speaker 0: And where were stepping in of it? Speaker 0: Where are avoiding Speaker 0: it?".

27:50 Speaker 0: The effect that they have on others around us... That's what is ahead! Speaker 0: We thank you for joining us. Speaker 0: We really hope you enjoy this journey because its one which feels very passionate about a convinced that can add enormous value to your growth.

28:10 Speaker 1: That's right. Speaker 1: We're doing this podcast partly because we like talking with each other and partly cause were fascinated by the subject. Speaker 1: Also though, because this is our way of being powerful by spreading the message and spreading information. Speaker 1: There's not a lot around really about power. Speaker 1: there are no leadership courses discusses leadership but they don't necessarily talk specifically. Speaker 1: so we want to come into what you see as gap in field be able contribute feel like use all our knowledge and experience, a lot of experience between us both in the personal development and therapy an interpersonal field that I come from.

28:55 Speaker 1: And then organizational feel. Speaker 1: you've come form to be able contribute and yes make a difference in world. Speaker 1: so this is also our excitement about blossoming developing through podcast ourselves as well. Speaker 0: yeah This is our journey, this is our service to you and it's our intended contribution. Speaker 0: We hope that You can receive It!