0:06 Speaker 0: Good. Speaker 0: Okay, welcome everyone to our second episode where learning as we're going of this power intelligence podcasters were calling it and Happy-to-have you on board? Speaker 0: And very happy to be with my friend and colleague Dr.. Paul Donovan to be discussing a Lot of interesting topics about Power that there's an enormous amount to talk about. Speaker 0: so We're just gonna sort of take it piece by piece. Speaker 0: And today we had in mind talking about some of the sources of power.

0:37 Speaker 0: We were touched on that last time, but want to go into it and more detail. Speaker 1: Thank you Vinay. Speaker 1: Yes! Speaker 1: Today we're talking where Power comes from. Speaker 1: So its such a fabulous topic because if we knew where it came form That some come out side Some come inside We might be able utilize this power more consciously More effectively And in fact, we can. Speaker 1: and knowing how to use power in relationships is critical. Speaker 1: Whether personal whether organizationally it has a huge impact.

1:12 Speaker 1: so today We're going be talking about sources of power. Speaker 1: What's the metaphor? Speaker 1: We want to use? Speaker 1: you know I like The one that were discussing. Speaker 1: yeah Speaker 0: the powered battery. Speaker 0: It's nice idea because of course power relates to the notions of electricity, as well as internal power and role-power. Speaker 0: And so we're talking about what charges us up? Speaker 0: What gives this energy and also what drains us in a lot different capacities because power can be very draining.

1:38 Speaker 0: I mean it could energizing when you know for some people standing in front of room with people having their attention is incredibly energising. Speaker 0: that's where i find A lot other people finding standing infront of room or power terrifying and therefore also draining. Speaker 0: So, you know power can both go both ways.

2:00 Speaker 1: Yeah so let's get into this and talk about power and its sources...and to start with maybe we should just cover something about what we understand to be personal sources of power the power that comes from within.

2:22 Speaker 1: And if we knew what it is, We could get more of that.

2:29 Speaker 1: I'm just going to name them. Speaker 1: and then maybe you want to say something about a few other things? Speaker 0: Shut up! Speaker 0: That sounds good yeah Speaker 1: Okay. Speaker 1: so the five personal sources Of power that we consider To be very knowledgeable to know Can deeply impact how we relate to others if we knew the power came from these sources. Speaker 1: So here it is, knowledge. Speaker 1: so your knowledge of skills you're abilities will say more about that knowledge.

3:00 Speaker 1: second expression The Power Of Communication. Speaker 1: How Fluent Are You? Speaker 1: How Capable Are You At Communicating Your Idea? Speaker 1: Third History! Speaker 1: The Power of History. Speaker 1: Having history with somebody Familiarity. Speaker 1: Fourth Attraction Can you be someone that people feel comfortable with and want to be near? Speaker 1: can You build rapport for instance, And finally character. Speaker 1: To what extent do others consider you-to-be Someone who operates out of strong Speaker 0: moral Speaker 1: platform a great character?

3:36 Speaker 1: So they're the five. Speaker 1: Now let's just quickly dip into them on how They might affect us and our personal uses of power in relationship. Speaker 1: Do you wanna say something about knowledge today? Speaker 0: Yeah, well each of these is so interesting in themselves. Speaker 0: Knowledge is more than just formal education although obviously that's a part of it especially these days where knowledge are so readily available to all of us. Speaker 0: there's a lot of people we could call autodidacts Speaker 0: i.e., Speaker 0: they're teaching themselves about different subjects and you can even do a free course at MIT nowadays.

4:11 Speaker 0: So knowledges probably more accessible then it might have ever been history really. Speaker 0: And we have so many different sources of knowledge available to us now. Speaker 0: Not only do we have kind of books, you know podcasts like this and Now We Have The Assistance Of AI That Can Kind Of Summarize You Know Ten Books At A Time And Give Us a Synopsis. Speaker 0: So Knowledge Is the Source of Power Which is becoming more widely distributed, which I think is a great thing. Speaker 0: Although of course how deep that knowledge?

4:43 Speaker 0: the power in lots of different situations and whether that be an interpersonal situation, knowledge about another person. Speaker 0: And understanding them also gives us a kind of power as a therapist. Speaker 0: That's the kind of how I have because people open up their lives to me... ...and i get to know alot about them.. ..and that knowledge constitutes a lot of power. Speaker 0: Of course im interested using this knowledge system. Speaker 0: people can use that knowledge malevolently or manipulatively as well, unfortunately.

5:36 Speaker 0: And then of course there's knowledge in the external world or knowledge for an organization. Speaker 0: so I mean... There is a lot basis of knowledge which all give us leverage in different areas our life. Speaker 1: Brilliant Thank you for that. Speaker 1: That's fantastic. Speaker 1: and I'm going to say something now about expressiveness if i could, the second one is what an extraordinary source of power this is? Speaker 1: The ability to be able to articulate fluidly and even persuasively the idea.

6:09 Speaker 1: You know... And in my working life when Im coaching organizationally and im listening someone talk about their scenario then I'll say something like, okay so is it what you want to say? Speaker 1: Is something like this and then all express on their behalf. Speaker 1: Something that they wanna say... And i don't know how many over the years..I would have heard hundreds of times over the year. Speaker 1: someone said oh my god! Speaker 1: That's exactly What I Want To Speaker 1: Say!! Speaker 1: Can You Come Into The Meeting & Say Speaker 1: That??

6:43 Speaker 1: And because over the years, I've developed a capacity to build this power of expressiveness. Speaker 1: To be able to express someone's point-of-view in way that meets their needs for clarity and persuasiveness.

7:01 Speaker 1: It's a power. Speaker 1: I make literally, living out of that power in terms of my coaching experience to be able to help some... To be able say okay is it something close to this? Speaker 1: And i utilize as many words and then invite them into practice expressing something In the difficult conversation thats approaching. Speaker 1: So its very great source of power! Speaker 1: I love to use it. Speaker 1: To help people find voice because i'm often able to give voice to something they haven't quite given language too yet and many people hearing this will say that's my power,I have that power!

7:42 Speaker 1: And uh...and thats cool. Speaker 1: That is a very wonderful source of power. Speaker 1: charging up your battery expressiveness. Speaker 1: Thats the second one. Speaker 0: Go ahead.

7:55 Speaker 0: Yeah, I agree. Speaker 0: and then i'm just thinking about a client that's talking to recently. Speaker 0: there is version of what you're talking challenges with his teenage daughter and who was, you know a little explosive at times. Speaker 0: And so I was sort of coaching him in how to articulate...how to have a conversation with her where he could deal do it in not only a non-reactive manner, but a manner which was like an open inquiry. Speaker 0: So yeah the fine tuning of these kind of communication skills.

8:37 Speaker 0: you're right! Speaker 0: It can make a huge difference to that power you have because if he just bluntly raises the topic she's going become defensive...it is very difficult sometimes to deal with matters such as this and thats where we need this kind expressive power. Speaker 1: Yeah, what a great example. Speaker 1: Yes You know I couldn't agree more in my world? Speaker 1: I'm often helping people find voice to say things. Speaker 0: up Speaker 1: A power gradient is someone who was more seniored of themselves where they would have no voice or Down a power gradient as someone who's less senior too Say something in a way that is less likely just to create withdrawal a silent reactive response on the other side, unhelpful deferring.

9:28 Speaker 1: All of those things that can happen when messages are sent down to power gradient and either way this power of expressiveness. Speaker 1: how could I express something clearly that honours my need? Speaker 1: And yet holds the needs in mind such they might be able hear what i'm saying? Speaker 1: so yeah it's great! Speaker 1: That is the second one. Speaker 1: Now, do you want to say something about history? Speaker 1: What is this power of history Vinay. Speaker 0: Yeah It's that's very interesting to me from a point-of view of another psychological modality That I use called family constellations which basically works with what we call the field that it your context and particularly the intergenerational context, although you can also work with the context in organizations.

10:16 Speaker 0: And basically working with a kind of structure under complex interaction that goes on in a system or field.

10:27 Speaker 0: So within this understanding so called history I say so-called because our history is from systems or a field point of view always present, although we have history with someone that history is carried into here and now in the interaction as In a way it's the future. Speaker 0: And the projections on to the future. Speaker 0: So that the history which we carry with us The more history you will have with someone there's kind of more depth. Speaker 0: You could say this But Hellinger calls it, there's more weight.

10:58 Speaker 0: And so an old relationship which is older in time has more weight to it simply by virtue of the history even whether its a good or bad history and... So nature of this history includes some knowledge from other person that part about but partly just the length experience we have with someone although thats kind of passive Quality it's not something we necessarily actively work on. Speaker 0: It's just a fact and The risk the honouring of that factor in the respecting of that factive history is quite significant both I think an interpersonal relationships as well, as in organizational scenarios.

11:41 Speaker 0: so for instance A classic example In this way is the history one has with ones parents. Speaker 0: generally You know, unless perhaps you're adopted or something. Speaker 0: The longest relationship that you have is of course with your birth parents and so That produces a kind of a strength A power in the relationship...a power of mutual influence and a very much interpersonal power. Speaker 0: The expressiveness that we were talking about, it's very much an inter-personal relational power.

12:14 Speaker 0: And this historical dimension is also kind of powerful. Speaker 0: though you can think of a relational power. Speaker 0: You know the person who might be secretary without so many nominal powers but if he or she has been in the organization as long as CEO then they have quite a lot of power in terms the history and their experience, knowledge your people seeing them come go. Speaker 0: This is an interesting aspect because it's based on familiarity or trust often on reciprocity. Speaker 0: both have a history.

12:52 Speaker 0: so you might have some comments as well. Speaker 1: I love your comments, you know. Speaker 1: You made me remember...I had a little visit from my twin brother on the weekend and we don't see each other all that often. Speaker 1: he lives several hours away from me but We have a long history together And when we stand in chat it just there is something between us That's hard to explain except through history. Speaker 1: There is such a deep sense of connectedness with my twin brother.

13:30 Speaker 1: And I'm, you know...I am old now like I'm sixty four this year and we've been on a long journey! Speaker 1: And i'm so thankful for the history that he and I have. Speaker 1: You Know? Speaker 1: To be able to just be with each other So easily Is Just A Gift.

13:52 Speaker 1: reflecting on that. Speaker 1: I'm so grateful for it, but i wouldn't have thought of unless you described it so well and yeah... Speaker 0: Well there's another aspect to that which can be problematic. Speaker 0: many people have experienced this, and that's the previous girlfriend or a previous boyfriend. Speaker 0: Or the previous spouse. Speaker 0: you know whatever it is for one. Speaker 0: And of course thats often experienced by ones partner as source threat The history they had with someone.

14:19 Speaker 0: People even use their word history. Speaker 0: It is because That historical relationship Even if your no longer in it If you haven't been into it For a number years. Speaker 0: Its has that sort weight of history. Speaker 0: For instance, you're describing with your brother. Speaker 0: You's not going to have that much weight. Speaker 0: but if had a high school sweetheart and married her for twenty years then whatever reasons broke up or second marriage the history of this relationship has an enormous amount of weight including children together.

14:54 Speaker 0: So the history is very significant in terms of power dynamics or relationship, we could say. Speaker 0: Aren't Speaker 1: they? Speaker 1: You know you just reminded me a scenario. Speaker 1: right now and like Right Now In My Home I have my son And his wife with their eight month old child. Speaker 1: but do you who babysitting right now, beautifully babysitting that child is my ex-wife. Speaker 1: So at the moment in my house just I have my current wife and my ex wife...my first wife!

15:27 Speaker 1: And we look to develop make good meanings of our history. Speaker 1: so she's a fabulous person. Speaker 1: But more important than that is, my wife and I have a great relationship with my first wife such as she can come in. Speaker 1: And so to your point you know history can be really problematic or it could be very supportive. Speaker 1: You can make it supportive To a certain degree. Speaker 1: i think That's certainly what My First Wife & I & My Wife Now Have Done Meaning then we can offer a far better service to our grandson, you know it's really something.

16:13 Speaker 1: It is wonderful Speaker 0: here and not so many people have achieved that I think deserves some congratulations. Speaker 0: obviously hard work on everybody's heart all sorts of patience everything else. Speaker 0: So yeah definitely power that exists passively and then actively you can do different things with it. Speaker 0: I mean, the richness of history can enhance relationship or it could detract from it. Speaker 0: so how we use this power is really one of the skills or capacities which all have an often historical pool.

16:50 Speaker 0: where can disempower a current relationship, whereas you're describing where in fact the whole thing can synergise together and that power of coming together is augmented.

17:05 Speaker 1: Yeah absolutely it's very powerful to be able to utilise the resource of history.

17:22 Speaker 1: of our five personal sources of power is attraction. Speaker 1: And maybe I'll just say something briefly about that. Speaker 1: now, i like the word attraction if it's broad what really means to what? Speaker 1: agree can you create rapport and ease with someone else such as they'd liked be with you? Speaker 1: Some have this more natural power source, some of us it's not so natural. Speaker 1: But it is something that we can develop to be able to learn how create rapport with others such they feel safe enough To...

18:04 Be one nearers! Speaker 1: To communicate With Us. Speaker 1: You know in these five sources of powers and the attraction being fourth When I'm teaching this sort of things to groups, I often say not all them will be your sweet spot. Speaker 1: But some might have a place where you can use and build and more consciously capitalise in life. Speaker 1: I suspect this is partly true of attraction, your capacity. Speaker 1: This relational ability to be with people and define that you can be someone that others feel comfortable around That they feel safe within.

18:47 Speaker 1: You could build rapport with them And do it more flexibly. Speaker 1: a greater number Of People. Speaker 1: There's always going To Be people in our lives we think We Can Build rapport With and the first of those on top list are people who were like us. Speaker 1: We have a natural rapport with them, then depending upon how flexible you're in greater range across whom might be able to build a safe context for relationship. Speaker 1: that just all depends on your flexibility being in gaining rapport with another.

19:21 Speaker 1: To take something from their qualities you know, like I was just thinking i had a client that I've been working with over the last few months and they're very factual straight to the point. Speaker 1: They don't mean to be kind of impersonal but there's...but..they do have a tendency to want to go straight to work pull up with him my major, I call it my Major-Major role who's a famous character from The Cat's Twenty Two book and where i just pick up on my task focus. Speaker 1: And once we've done that...and get into And then we're getting close.

20:07 Speaker 1: I might say, hey and now i just want to pause. Speaker 1: you know how are things going more generally? Speaker 1: Then at that moment they may or may not be willing to move with me into the other but my ability is to get in task because naturally I want to create safety other means earlier. Speaker 1: Some people are like that, i'm in that category. Speaker 1: This is not the case for me. Speaker 1: That um so For this client and Soi wanna honor that there's nothing wrong with his approach.

20:36 Speaker 1: It's just different to mine. Speaker 1: But to be extent that I can actually Just exercise more flexibility about The way I Like as a word of play on More keys On the piano that Are available To us Then we Can We Can Create Something Good Together. Speaker 1: Attractions Important Speaker 0: Yeah, and I think that there's a number of points you make which are quite significant because sometimes people aren't naturally attractive whether they're their face or their manner. Speaker 0: Or the voice.

21:06 Speaker 0: so lots of things we call charisma something And obviously those who have natural attractiveness will without effort almost be able to draw in you know, a lot of power. Speaker 0: Of course people with charisma have enormous power over other people and in all such situations just by virtue of this attractiveness. Speaker 0: however we don't always have the perfect face or or even the power of expression. Speaker 0: And yet, as you say that's what good about I think that word rapport because it is like well there is something people can develop and its a skill in which they learn to put other peoples at ease and increase their connection with attractiveness factor if not automatically.

22:03 Speaker 0: Certainly in therapy, the people where there's an easier connection and just a natural attractiveness you could say it is much easier to work with those. Speaker 0: The relationship just unfolds, and I have a lot more influences as the therapist in those situations. Speaker 0: Of course it could be used badly if the therapist sort of went into direction with their own personal needs. Speaker 0: but If you use that service to therapy or work your doing then attraction can very positive.

22:34 Speaker 0: so hence the flexibility you're describing And the factual issue, the task versus relational focus have naturally, you know different orientations and the task focus. Speaker 0: And when I'm at work sort of outside of the therapy i do tend to be quite task focused! Speaker 0: You want to get things done? Speaker 0: Want to get down-to-brass tax? Speaker 0: Whilst if someone's willing and able to work in that way it's great but we kind of just ignore.

23:10 Speaker 0: Attraction could also be called, you know warm connection. Speaker 0: There's different ways to describe it. Speaker 0: if we ignore that then It can be problematic. Speaker 0: We're gonna end up with a bit of a brittle relationship which you know? Speaker 0: Can happen in lot of virtual vertical work situations. Speaker 0: so It's something to kind of consider as part of our power battery Part of what charges us up part of gives this capacity. Speaker 0: And even if you don't have that amazing natural charisma, You can indeed develop these kind of skills.

23:43 Speaker 1: Yes I love that. Speaker 1: thank-you for that. Speaker 1: and the final of our five sources a personal power is What could be just titled character? Speaker 1: This is to the extent which others perceive within you A strong moral platform that makes you dependable, reliable and ultimately someone who they consider to be safe with.

24:17 Speaker 1: With for instance precious information or access to something happening in your life. Speaker 1: so character is a very real source of power. Speaker 1: Now interestingly One doesn't build character to then become powerful via its use.

24:41 Speaker 1: Character is it's own reward, but I want let you know.

24:48 Speaker 1: the great benefit of building a character... ...is that people follow and are more likely to listen to take advice from, to consider those that they consider have character who are going to consider the needs of other person as well their own needs for instance. Speaker 1: Who were gonna disclose there need rather than hold them back? Speaker 1: Who we're going to operate transparently and look test their own assumptions about somebody else rather then just clinging on truth of it? Speaker 1: Those people do who endeavor, not we don't always do this but endeavour to what they say were going to be.

25:34 Speaker 1: These are simple hallmarks of those with someone with character and I think it's a lovely way...a lovely final point to personal power. Speaker 1: the toughest..the richest prize is being experienced as someone that has character. Speaker 1: What do you think about that? Speaker 1: for me? Speaker 1: Yeah, what are your reflections Speaker 0: right? Speaker 0: and it's um It's interesting because at you know character people tend to think of kind of as a bit inborn but sort of Embedded and You're also describing those behaviors which Again, like skills that things people can do.

26:12 Speaker 0: It's not just some magically wonderful character You've got or you raise in a very healthy family so, you know? Speaker 0: You've just got some kind of natural steadiness. Speaker 0: Of course That's true. Speaker 0: Some people have that sort of internal quality. Speaker 0: However there is also this sort of skill slash behavioral quality which as well how we consistently choose to act and following through on agreements or keeping information private, these are things we can do to build our own character.

26:44 Speaker 0: and as you say again in this relational dimension. Speaker 0: We say there's a personal source of sources of power but they're very much relational sources of powers not just in us it's between us And does build trust and safety On a psychotherapeutic level is also very important. Speaker 0: people sense of safety Is what allows them to come forward? Speaker 0: In me to have influence on the game. Speaker 0: You know My perspective on therapy is it's not just a kind of technical skills process and paraphrasing.

27:12 Speaker 0: It's also building the relational ground, and building that trust. Speaker 0: because when people have their trust then they're going to naturally come forward And I'm able to have sort more influence over them you could say or are more able to guide them. Speaker 0: without that trust with a more technical relationship Yeah, we don't get as far and I think that's true in organizations. Speaker 0: As well. Speaker 0: so much is built on relationship And the relationship comes out of people's perception and their experience with your character.

27:40 Speaker 0: It characters interesting in terms of use the word moral because it sort of classical ethical frameworks. Speaker 0: That's one of three main ethical frames you know, moral or ethical by your actions. Speaker 0: Or it can be moral-ethical simply by our intentions and a lot of the injunctions to act in ethical ways whether interpersonally or in organizations that they're sort more extrinsic whereas if...if your character contains these principles which are lived by then ethics come from within.

28:19 Speaker 0: so Yeah, this is a more subtle kind of dimension or power and yet very significant. Speaker 0: And people do indeed pick that up just sort of intuitively. Speaker 0: they have a sense of another person's character as well as you know the behavior that they see in front of them an over time. Speaker 0: That of course builds The Power We Have In Relationship and our reputation. Speaker 0: So it's tricky though because sometimes people don't really know who we are, or we misjudge other people.

28:49 Speaker 0: We think they're more reliable than they are. Speaker 0: so it's also a matter of kind of getting to know people or people getting to us and knowing that we are consistent and we do in fact follow through on what we say as you remarked. Speaker 1: I think hearing you say one of the moral attributes of this notion of building character is not lying And I would recommend any listener or viewer of this to take on board the notion of seeing whether you can commit to not lying. Speaker 1: It's actually much harder than it sounds, it truly is!

29:35 Speaker 1: The little lies we tell to avoid a point of tension in our relationship that more often than we care to admit, get exposed. Speaker 1: And ultimately it's in my view most things can't get uncovered one way or another and so not lying like tell the truth and don't lie, is something that we sense you know in somebody else. Speaker 1: And ultimately gets uncovered. Speaker 1: I feel like it's one of the more important pieces of us building character. Speaker 1: so can you lean into the tough parts of a conversation if you were to not say something which is better than lying or finding more ways to tell the truth, and so it's a really interesting area.

30:38 Speaker 0: So yeah there are few things that I want to comment on before we finish because as a therapist i'm very interested in what you call authenticity which is very much about a particular kind of honesty about yourself or your experiences or feelings particularly um...as compared simply honesty about your opinions which is a bit more sort of an external layer. Speaker 0: So authenticity is something that we kind of have as the value and cultivate, I think it's complex...I'm sure you might have a comment on this in organizations' issue of authenticity because of course its little different than interpersonal relationship wherein organization sometimes ...it not appropriate or strategic to tell someone everything about yourself the full truth, and sometimes you know in a Machiavellian sense perhaps.

31:34 Speaker 0: In good sense of the word we need to withhold certain amount information from certain circumstances into position or power. Speaker 0: if there's some people that are going to be fired then boss can't needs follow very careful protocol about when they reveal them because it could really Disturb the company and disturb people inappropriately. Speaker 0: So, you know that there's complications within an organization between That sort of character tray of being completely honest And then need to manage information for instance.

32:09 Speaker 0: so I think that Yeah in the interpersonal sphere It's more straightforward but the organizational sphere it. Speaker 0: this deserves some attention because power is also what you know, comes from another kind of power. Speaker 0: From withholding information and not always divulging it. Speaker 0: that's a very strategic kind of Power which is at odds with this sort of character authenticity power we're talking about. Speaker 1: Yes I think within organizations It is multi-layered. Speaker 1: Its usually not discussed very openly but the higher one gets And i work as You Know With executive teams you know, many organizations over the years and they are routinely having to manage what to disclose.

32:57 Speaker 1: And whatnot to disclose? Speaker 1: because on one hand collaboration of intention to work which is, which is facilitated by openness and transparency at the senior level. Speaker 1: And yet on the other hand there's some things that many executives would say. Speaker 1: this isn't something we will share it because it'll be unhelpfully disruptive It may not come to pass or it might come to a pass.

33:33 Speaker 1: so very real tension between deciding which side do we go on in relation to this topic. Speaker 1: And I've been with CEOs who tend to do more one than the other and favor one without knowing they have a bias towards one, you know? Speaker 1: So not knowing where you might have general bias toward doing is going to limit your capacity to exercise character as a power source because you're lacking self-awareness. Speaker 1: And so, the role of the team supported by a facilitator is to give feedback to each other including the CEO about where they might see the CEO tending to be more biased towards when it may not be helpful.

34:26 Speaker 1: and Yeah, and that can happen in a team. Speaker 1: That's why teams are so useful but usually some teams find it very difficult to do that unless there is a facilitator Speaker 0: In Speaker 1: the room someone playing the role like I might play with a team where they're able To more safely give feedback to one another And know that i won't get out of hand and It'll be okay. Speaker 0: Yeah yeah self-awareness Is certainly something i'm Very interested in from The therapeutic point Of view because A lot of the work is not just kind of reforming people or developing people.

35:00 Speaker 0: It's helping them become more aware who they are, their own character and behaviour. Speaker 0: And sometimes as you're describing between the tensions in this case two different sources of power. Speaker 0: There isn't some solution to that. Speaker 0: it's a tension where we have to live with The more awareness. Speaker 0: I think Skill there is in the utilization of power. Speaker 1: Hmm beautiful. Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. Speaker 1: So what we've been talking about? Speaker 1: Is is Power.

35:34 Speaker 1: you know five sources of power that come from Within but we actually can control just how charged we are charged up. Speaker 1: We are in that. Speaker 1: How full is our charge battery? Speaker 1: by virtue of building these five personal power sources, if you like all within that battery making sure it's all charged up and The reason why this is such a useful thing to consider. Speaker 1: Is still most of us considered power-to-be coming from something I can't control. Speaker 1: You know?

36:10 Speaker 1: I've been given power. Speaker 1: i've got an organization Lee. Speaker 1: Oh finally! Speaker 1: I'd be made project leader. Speaker 1: Oh, God. Speaker 1: Some power. Speaker 1: finally you know someone's given me some power You know? Speaker 1: or Someone said I could write that proposal and i don't need to send it Round the hoop through six other people To get it edited which drives Me nuts. Speaker 1: Finally? Speaker 1: I can write my own proposal for The client. Speaker 1: It's power And its all coming from outside.

36:36 Speaker 1: So we content in an organizational sense especially I think Can tend to outsource building power because we consider it's coming from outside. Speaker 1: The truth is a great deal of the power used day-to-day is built internally and its personal, relational... ...and helpful to have some distinctions about what it IS. Speaker 1: and that are five power sources we've been discussing. Speaker 0: Wonderful! Speaker 0: I think this has hopefully been very useful for people. Speaker 0: Great talking to you.

37:07 Speaker 0: as always next time will talk about other power sources more external. Speaker 1: Yes let us do that Speaker 0: Great. Speaker 0: Wonderful. Speaker 1: Thanks for now. Speaker 0: See you next time Speaker 1: You too.