0:06 Speaker 1: So, welcome everyone to another podcast. Speaker 1: Dr Stephen Agatha that's me and dr Paul Donovan talking about the topic of power And today we're discussing something called The Power Paradox. Speaker 1: so sounds intriguing. Speaker 1: It's a great title and it's actually of core importance. Speaker 1: now. Speaker 1: We have mentioned this before in passing. Speaker 1: Today were gonna go into it in more detail. Speaker 1: Power Paradox is actually very enlightening as a way of understanding Speaker 0: power.

0:37 Speaker 1: It first emerged, I read it in the paper by Dascha Keltner at all and since its been verified with research. Speaker 1: So when I read that paper, i was pretty excited and could see he really introduced an important new concept. Speaker 1: Paul will hand it over to you. Speaker 1: what is the power of Paradox? Speaker 0: Yeah thank you Vinay!

1:07 Speaker 0: And he put this, the book together later on called The Power Paradox and that's when it became a little more famous. Speaker 0: He'd been a professor for many decades and did lots of research on power but what he did was nail the rise-and-fall of leaders... ...And why? Speaker 0: That happens! Speaker 0: And he called It THE POWER PARADOX AND IT WAS BASED ON LOTS OF RESEARCH. Speaker 0: BUT HERE'S A QUOTE FROM HERE. Speaker 0: IN FACT I I quote him in my own book, Bosses Behaving Badly.

1:38 Speaker 0: And that's a terrible plug isn't it? Speaker 0: But there you have…it is nice isn't.

2:01 Speaker 0: As leaders get elevated and lifted into positions which have more rank, they tend to lose skills with people. Speaker 0: Critical leadership skills! Speaker 0: And it's such an extraordinary thing. Speaker 0: but here is the really problematic part of that. Speaker 0: The leader themselves are often not aware of this. Speaker 0: So while power paradox can be outsmarted The first and most important step in managing the power paradox is being aware that it even exists. Speaker 0: As the leader elevates in position, there are demonstrable repeatable changes on how they tend to behave.

2:44 Speaker 0: That's their most incredible thing. Speaker 0: And these demonstraBLE repeatable ways of behaving are these? Speaker 0: Do you want hear them? Speaker 0: Yes Speaker 1: indeed In fact before we dive-in I just wanna comment that the fact of losing skills, I think is very key here as well. Speaker 1: So let's come back to... Yes! Speaker 0: They do lose skills. Speaker 0: Here's the incredible part about The Paradox. Speaker 0: As people get elevated Most People who Get Elevated because they don't outsmart the power paradox Lose Skills.

3:21 Speaker 0: They Get Less Able To Work Effectively With Others. Speaker 0: That's why so many leaders you meet who are in elevated positions, they get weird. Speaker 0: They kind of get weird to talk too and it is because its this invisible but pervasive impact on being in an elevated position that the don't know what was happening with them. Speaker 0: So there have been outsmarted. Speaker 0: It can be outsmarted. Speaker 0: Thats a way Dakar Kelton talks about it. Speaker 0: Outsmarting the power paradox Here Is What Happens To Leaders.

3:53 Speaker 0: They Don't Know It but this is what's happening to them. Speaker 0: They are less able to accurately read the emotions of others around them. Speaker 0: they tend to become more self-orientated, less others orientated. Speaker 0: ,they tend to see others as utility in their service .They tend to talk more... they become less disinhibited or sorry Okay, Speaker 1: so you know when we say this Paul I mean a lot of people would say well okay. Speaker 1: It seems to happen. Speaker 1: they become You know pricks will get in power?

4:34 Speaker 1: I'm gonna say yeah ok. Speaker 1: So what's new about what your saying? Speaker 1: it seems kind obvious Speaker 0: All right sure Its. Speaker 0: What really problematic is that? Speaker 0: its why and your reaction is a really interesting one, it's because we've tended now just to expect that when people get into more senior positions they behave like jerks. Speaker 0: They do outrageous things you know here in Australia there having sex on their desk at the parliament house with some staffer And thinking...they're going to get away with it!

5:07 Speaker 0: That no-one will ever find out about It..and this thing of power paradoxes it enables you to completely overestimate what you even get away with, um...what your going out smart others with. Speaker 0: And so we've just come to expect that people who gets really high levels of behavior behave kind of strangely are very self-orientated and I'm wanting the sound an alarm here Vinay because this is not what we need. Speaker 0: We need leaders Know they need power to get their job done, but who work with it intelligently Who are disciplined?

5:50 Speaker 0: With its impact on them and who know how to outsmart the power paradox? Speaker 0: because the paradox is that work Reducing there capability To really lead moment by moment with others to be able to Empathize Notice what's happening around them. Speaker 0: And then leading people onto a better place. Speaker 0: And that gets eroded when people get elevated if they are not awake to what's Speaker 0: happening.". Speaker 1: So, I Speaker 0: mean this Speaker 1: sounds like a version of the power corrupts.

6:27 Speaker 1: you know it's again... Yeah! Speaker 1: People say well yes we no power corrupt and your just giving examples at that but become stupid. Speaker 1: so gain which startlingly revealed here by this notion? Speaker 0: Yes Power does tend to corrupt. Speaker 0: The power paradox is the nitty-gritty of how that happens, so it starts with us. Speaker 0: we must demand that our leaders live examined lives and examine what's happening inside them So they can outsmart us. Speaker 0: but I want you know Most of us are looking at leaders who behave badly and thinking what a jerk.

7:07 Speaker 0: And perhaps they will always like that before they got there. Speaker 0: That's our mindset But it's not true. Speaker 0: The truth is we are likely to do exactly the same thing when we get those get to those positions. Speaker 0: So, too easy to dismiss people in high positions as being jerks on a prick selfish unable to genuinely connect with others. Speaker 0: And thinking they were always like that, They probably weren't! Speaker 0: That we're probably just-just like you. Speaker 0: and now there in our elevator position...

7:42 ...and their actually under more stress, far more stressed because of that elevator position.. ..And I would suggest thats one the critical reasons why this power paradox is so pervasive. Speaker 1: So your kind talking about it but can you say something Like what's going on like why do people become jerks? Speaker 1: We know that phrase power corrupts, and we just sort of accept it as you say. Speaker 1: But is there anything about the paradox which kind of helps us understand a little bit more?

8:14 Speaker 0: Here's one little bit of research That I think could help us gain insight into. Speaker 0: It i'm Just go to share how The Research has done because its an interesting story. Speaker 0: So what Professor Keltner does and did is he primed people to feel powerful, then noticed the differences. Speaker 0: Here's an example of how he did that. Speaker 0: He took two groups. Speaker 0: One group showed images very rich Very privileged People who had access a lot of resources Movie stars on their own you know, aeroplanes that kind of thing.

8:51 Speaker 0: And the other group he showed pictures of people who were really struggling The underprivileged without resources homeless That kind of things. Speaker 0: so we had these two groups. Speaker 0: So he showed these to groups their respective images and then He showed each group a picture over twelve strap twelve step ladder and said here's a picture of the ladder Of life. Speaker 0: Where would you position yourself on the ladder of life right now? Speaker 0: So we asked him that same question.

9:22 Speaker 0: Now, The group he showed pictures of the rich and famous ranked themselves lower because they felt less than here are exposed to all these people who have made it great resources the pictures of those who are homeless and underprivileged, they rank themselves quite naturally higher on The Ladder Of Life. Speaker 0: because hey I think i'm doing all right. Speaker 0: And so they get shown this ladder immediately after the images and then immediately after ranking themselves On The Ladda They have their ability...

10:03 Their empathy measured. Speaker 0: So they go through a well-known test to measure your capacity To read emotions in others. Speaker 0: and here's the really interesting bit. Speaker 0: The group that ranked themselves higher in life Higher on that ladder had a distinctly lessened ability to read the emotions of others. Speaker 0: it happened instantly And the people who rank themselves lower In life because I'd seen all the pictures are fancy people had, were more accurate at reading emotions in others.

10:40 Speaker 0: So it's a relatively instantaneous impact the moment we start feeling more than compared to others In our world The moment we started being orientated toward comparison and thinking where somehow above Our ability To read emotions drops immediately. Speaker 0: And all of that is just amplified and drawn out, and made even more pervasive when you get elevated into positions of power for long periods of time. Speaker 0: But the effect at The Power Paradox is actually can be quite instant.

11:19 Speaker 0: if you get primed to feel powerful You'll be less able to read other people's emotions And your capacity To accurately read what going on around you in a social context Is a central skill to lead will. Speaker 0: So isn't that amazing, Vinay? Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Speaker 1: I was stunned by it and every time i read about it or hear you talking about it now...I think wow that this is so interesting! Speaker 1: It's partly....you know..i did a PhD on power and your teaching on it and practicing on the subject.

11:55 Speaker 1: its like part of the fascination And for me what important is also reveals that this not something just inborn Or people are psychopathic. Speaker 1: This suggests in terms of the neuroplasticity that we talk about, the changeability this phenomena that you're talking about sort of takes over, on the other hand if it happens so instantaneously then it means yeah. Speaker 1: It's not really inborn in some way or even maybe a personality trait although it could exacerbate personality traits.

12:41 Speaker 1: but in fact that is something kind of circumstantial and you know, fluid. Speaker 1: So this kind of fluidity I think gives hope because if we can...if simply changing our perception can change our behavior and even our empathy so dramatically then yeah self-awareness can potentially shift it as well. Speaker 0: Yes! Speaker 0: Well said..I love the way he said that It's very instantaneous. Speaker 0: What i say is chemical A set of chemical reactions inside out body when to get elevated.

13:17 Speaker 0: and if we're not prepared for that elevation, for positions of more power it's going to happen. Speaker 0: It's gonna happen! Speaker 0: And its' not THAT tough to outsmart. Speaker 0: Shall we talk about how to do that? Speaker 0: Yes, Speaker 1: let's do that because I mean the research is fascinating and as you know there are many studies like hundreds of studies now that have replicated what your describing. Speaker 1: And each study from a different angle has found it same thing.

13:44 Speaker 1: so its very consistent finding. Speaker 1: So yeah, of course what's important is What we can do about it. Speaker 1: but before you go on to that I want to pick up one thing. Speaker 1: You said which? Speaker 1: Is the chemical aspect? Speaker 1: now One of the things they found fascinating is That not only as this there's a change of perception and They see themselves differently on the ladder in their empathy changes. Speaker 1: But as you say they're actual chemical changes The amount of hormones someone's secreting the cortisol In their blood.

14:13 Speaker 1: i mean There's A whole cascade of effects which are probably reciprocal. Speaker 1: So if this power paradox, flipping into the state increases cortisol then that also affects us and so hormones are very significant to how we feel and see the world. Speaker 1: We have a sort-of cross-the-board effect.

14:39 Speaker 0: here's how I position it is being elevated in power is a tough gig and it's stressful. Speaker 0: It might look attractive, but actually most people don't want power because its too threatening. Speaker 0: they get to expose And their relatively fragile self-esteem might get disrupted as the fail publicly so that actively avoid Power to get things done in their lives, which is a problem by the way. Speaker 0: We want people who need and want power because interestingly if you have more autonomy on your role or authority to work independently…you'll actually be more successful – you will have more capacity to achieve what you want!

15:30 Speaker 0: And as an aside … you'll also have better health outcomes. Speaker 0: And so people who have more autonomy in their job and what rank in the role it gives them that tend to live longer, they get less heart attacks. Speaker 0: There's all sorts of far reaching health benefit from actually dealing with power well and wanting power to achieve a purpose in your life. Speaker 0: but most of us want to run for power because it exposes us.

16:04 Speaker 0: Those that get elevated, many of us the majority for pray to power paradox is only a small number people who end up doing it well. Speaker 0: The reason why we engage in these unhelpful patterns behavior if were not prepared be elevated because they give temporary reduction stress. Speaker 0: so when I walk and imagine manager walking into team report them and they're stressed, their stress. Speaker 0: And so out of that stress They walk into the team ago. Speaker 0: Okay right you could do That.

16:43 Speaker 0: if You Could go and Do That? Speaker 0: That's Great. Speaker 0: If You Go and Do that and They Just Hand Out Jobs to Everyone and then Inside They Go Phew! Speaker 0: That Feels Good. Speaker 0: and They've just Decreased Temporarily Their Stress Level but in The Process They've Seen everyone In Their Team as a Utility To Get Jobs Done For Them.

17:05 Speaker 0: And that's a very poor approach to leading people and it tends to disengage them. Speaker 0: It doesn't lead long-term good outcomes, not at least long term poor business outcomes.

17:22 Speaker 1: So is what a leader does? Speaker 1: They hand out jobs they delegate, they supervise like you know. Speaker 1: What are you saying which should do differently? Speaker 0: Yeah the best managers in world research on this far-reaching and really solid, certainly the best managers in the world know how to allocate work. Speaker 0: Know how to give feedback. Speaker 0: but they do that in the context of understanding the needs of the people with whom their working. Speaker 0: In fact The mindset shift from those managers who get the best business outcomes is That They are there To ensure that the needs Of the People Who report them Get met.

18:06 Speaker 0: Isn't that a mindblower? Speaker 1: Yeah, and that could be described as the empathy in a way. Speaker 0: Yes! Speaker 0: Exactly how can they have a mindset to make sure those people who report them had their needs met if they cannot even read appropriately where these are? Speaker 0: And when managers bring that kind of mindset business outcomes increase. Speaker 0: And it's not that they're not prepared to give tough feedback. Speaker 0: It's not, but...it's not That They're Not willing To Drive Towards Their Outcomes But They Do In The Context Of Knowing That A Team of People Reporting To Them Must Continue To Get Their Needs Met Or Else.

18:44 Speaker 0: They're Going To Disengage. Speaker 1: So This Sounds Kindof-It Still Sounds Almost could sound almost idealistic. Speaker 1: Well, yes that's a good manager and if you have a good manager thats wonderful. Speaker 1: they care about the needs of people around them rather than just dispensing work. Speaker 1: but how can understand the power paradox help someone to achieve this?

19:07 Speaker 0: The first most practical thing I would suggest leaders do is become more aware where their anxiety spikes Because that's likely to when they'll do a rank fell or when I use the perk of power to temporarily reduce their stress, and when they use those perks to reduce that stress. Speaker 0: They became less effective with others. Speaker 0: so the first thing is I sometimes have done this an eye with leaders of awesome. Speaker 0: just tell me about there day from nine-to five on a little scale here and I draw line say Tell me generally where your peak of stress might be created throughout that day And so that we can anticipate it, because that's the moments where they're more likely to fall prey to the impact of The Power Paradox.

20:00 Speaker 0: If there are unaware that they start getting stressed and start barking orders to people or start becoming very self-orientated—or this is as many leaders do this —they start have a stressful thought... ...and their sitting in their team…. Speaker 0: …and they start looking at their phone! Speaker 0: Or they start being completely transfixed by something else going on all together And forget that they're the leader and people are watching them.

20:26 Speaker 0: I was running a large meeting with a team of executives, top fifty-five who were running this large organization here in Sydney And I noticed that some people, uh...some of the leaders. Speaker 0: Some of the executive teams sitting at tables suddenly had stressful thoughts and then just get transfixed on their phone while they're in a conversation at their tables. Speaker 0: It's really poor form! Speaker 0: ...and it is only because they got anxious about some random thought that went through them mind.

20:55 Speaker 0: They could no longer attend to this conversation therein. Speaker 0: Their rank gives him his ability to tune out. Speaker 0: Nobody else at that table was just tuning out whenever they wanted to and started doing in their inbox. Speaker 0: But the most senior person at the table can is no one will call them on it. Speaker 1: Yeah, there's that's right exactly. Speaker 1: No nobody's going to challenge them and say what are you doing looking? Speaker 1: At your phone. Speaker 1: yeah because of position or power.

21:20 Speaker 1: so very interesting To me on a psychological level because really talking about a key being I mean, use the word stress. Speaker 1: Of course that's sort of a more dignified term. Speaker 1: but you also mentioned anxiety which is little bit getting to the psychology of it and The fact that Anxiety Is A very important metric for Anybody in a position or power To be aware Because they tend to hand on That Anxity Or They Do Deflective Things With It. Speaker 1: So We're Talking Here About Self-Awareness Not Just In Terms Of Behavior But in Terms What Your Feelings Are.

21:57 Speaker 0: Yeah, yeah that's a great mix. Speaker 0: I think our leaders capacity to manage their anxiety and become aware of it And how its impacting them moment by moment behavior is one of the critical competencies we all need to see in ourselves and in the leaders That will enable us to avoid this power paradox. Speaker 0: Ultimately, the rise and fall of leaders because this is why there's a fall. Speaker 0: People will ultimately not continue to follow leaders who they don't believe are therefore their common good.

22:39 Speaker 0: so in corporations that get worked around people just avoid them In political environments. Speaker 0: They'll ultimately be voted out.

22:52 Speaker 0: You know, in totalitarian states there can be rebellions. Speaker 0: It could take a long time. Speaker 0: but ultimately There's the long arc of power paradox and it creates the rise-and-fall Speaker 1: And you know an illustration of that I was just reading yesterday. Speaker 1: It was a story about the Dominican Republic and they had a dictator forgotten his name from like nineteen thirty to ninety sixty something, and he Was just everything awful That any dictator could be in here?

23:21 Speaker 1: You know killed like thirty thousand people and he had torture and secret informants. Speaker 1: The whole thing and he wasn't power for very long time now. Speaker 1: one of the features One of his features was that he would walk into any room and from his point of view, any woman was you know...his meat. Speaker 1: He could just grab any women that he wanted And in fact he sort-of almost demanded That some of the wealthy families would profit him Some of their daughters. Speaker 1: So one occasion, he walked into this party and there was a young woman who is the daughter of one of the leading families.

23:58 Speaker 1: And she was clearly pursuing her.

24:02 Speaker 1: She told him to back off. Speaker 1: He continued Then she slapped them in face which you know something nobody did. Speaker 1: She's standing up his power basically became one people that over period of more than a decade sort of was instrumental and eventually helping us overthrow unfortunately to death in the end. Speaker 1: So it's just such an interesting story because it illustrates this thing that people know, and that sit with people see And yeah People in power Just have this sort of elevated sense themselves on the complete lack Of awareness if other people as anything but their objects.

24:39 Speaker 1: so I think This is one of them. Speaker 1: you know. Speaker 1: very problematic problematic aspects of the power paradox is that there's a total lack of empathy and the dangerousness of that as well. Speaker 0: That's a very extreme example, and it's an accurate example And they're the examples we tend to be aware more broadly. Speaker 0: It's good for us to be reminded on this And its same effect when dealing with the nasty boss who just treats people as less than, it is a soul destroying experience to work for really bad boss.

25:20 Speaker 0: Now I would not like to compare with having to deal that kind of dictator you've described but i know in most of our western worlds many people worked for bosses and they are simply surviving these destroying experience. Speaker 0: And those bosses are being affected by the processes and phenomena of the power paradox, they're protected for a while then comes down. Speaker 0: so I'm aware about time.

26:05 Speaker 0: The first, I want to answer your other question and that is what do leaders? Speaker 0: Do? Speaker 0: they must begin to live an examined life. Speaker 0: They must be into notice when their anxiety gets gets peaked. Speaker 0: And then what the usual strategy is to manage that anxiety which will usually Be a problematic behavior It'll be them Capitalizing on some perk that power gives him. Speaker 0: That will temporarily reduce their stress. Speaker 0: And so that's the first, and by the way what we're really talking about is leaders must build their personal power because what I'm- What were you are really talkin' about for now?

26:45 Speaker 0: Is just building personal power...and if they aren't aware of it They begin to think that the feelings Of power that have in there elevated role is them. Speaker 0: And they don't realize that this is just the feelings. Speaker 0: They're getting bloated with the feelings of being elevated, but it's not the portable personal power that we can take into other roles in our lives. Speaker 0: It's just the bloated feelings of elevation and have come with being in the role that they are...

27:15 That's elevated! Speaker 0: So The first thing is build personal power by living an examined life and second things get feedback. Speaker 0: You must know that you're living in a world. Speaker 0: That's deprived of data about how others experience you. Speaker 0: the more your elevated, The less data you get. Speaker 0: So you have a massive responsibility to Get feedback because the figure at Luke gets horribly interrupted as you get elevated into positions of power. Speaker 1: I think another term which is the term privilege you know, sociological term and bandied around a lot these days.

27:57 Speaker 1: Both people exploring that term and people reacting to that term but I think in away. Speaker 1: apart from some inherited privilege what we're talking about is the experience of privilege, which and this is like the mechanics of it. Speaker 1: This is like that psychology and the behavior... And in fact there's power paradoxes were talking about describes What happens with privilege? Speaker 1: Which as when you move to a higher position then There's a whole constellation of things where you start assuming certain, you know rights and things like that including the sexual rights we talk about which leads to some of that sort me too sexual harassment behaviour.

28:37 Speaker 1: And a whole constellation other sense entitlement. Speaker 1: people who step into leadership positions get And this is as you say what often leads to their downfall. Speaker 1: So I think something important also in the macro sense, well it's a micro-sense of awareness and anxiety. Speaker 1: The macrosense is exactly what your talking about. Speaker 1: Aware of the arc of rise or fall leadership that each person although they feel the privilege and power of that role, as you describe.

29:06 Speaker 1: They are in fact just vulnerable to a fall. Speaker 1: so we need to be aware the wonderful feelings we have and all of the perks that go with the role. Speaker 1: In fact, as you say I'm very much attached to the role so in a way i think it can help people hopefully step back a little bit be interested both their internal experience anxiety behavior which results but also the sort of psychology or power interested in how stepping into a role gives you this sense of identity and leads to certain behaviors which eventually can distance, especially as we're talking about the lack of empathy.

29:49 Speaker 1: I mean, empathy is wonderful term although customer service people these days learn to do empathy or mimic it even though AI seems if we want to call it real empathy, the interest in the welfare of other people is a key. Speaker 1: Now this sounds almost like obvious light. Speaker 1: well... Of course if the leader's interested and other people you know they're gonna be more caring. Speaker 1: but where? Speaker 1: I guess emphasizing that This is not just important from sort of some moral point-of view or something But it's important practically in terms the effectiveness of the leader And their success long term.

30:29 Speaker 0: Yeah Amen to that. Speaker 0: It is I love the way you just said, we as if you want to be a leader then You'll need to know That your in service two others. Speaker 0: fundamentally leaders are offering something to people around them and And if you can offer it and stay connected to them they will follow.

30:58 Speaker 0: so its. Speaker 0: this notion of leadership means that if we can talk about leadership in this context, We will have people going into leadership who would be less likely to fall prey to the power paradox because they'll able sustain with them a genuine sense of connection and humility. Speaker 0: While They understand And use well The Power That They Have In Their Role To Achieve A Purpose Of Some Kind They know they must need power. Speaker 0: In fact, great leaders want power because they wanted in service of achieving something great and they just bring the discipline with it – the psychological disciplines as you might refer to enable us not to fall prey to impacts that are being elevated.

31:56 Speaker 0: This is kind Everyday people need to cultivate in ourselves and demand in our leaders increasingly. Speaker 0: Yeah, so that's the power paradox. Speaker 1: yeah And you mentioned is leadership and service. Speaker 1: there was a wonderful book called servant leadership Which is exactly about bad? Speaker 1: People might also look that up. Speaker 1: So much to talk about. Speaker 1: It's always very exciting and Speaker 0: we will kind of come Speaker 1: back to this again, but yes I get very stimulated talking about these things.

32:32 Speaker 1: or you know...we teach it for great to discuss with each other something that's very useful for people, whether they're in positions of leadership or considering them. Speaker 1: Or in fact down power too because when you understand the way their power works it can also help you to understand what is going on with these bosses behaving badly as you describe? Speaker 0: Yeah absolutely yep! Speaker 0: It's a great topic and I hope those who are listening found it helpful.

33:01 Speaker 0: Thanks very Speaker 1: much. Speaker 1: we'll see another Speaker 0: time.