0:06 Speaker 1: So welcome to our next podcast. Speaker 1: Dr. Speaker 1: Steven Aganta, that's me and dr.. Paul Donovan. Speaker 1: here We're having another conversation. Speaker 1: are we enjoy talking to each other? Speaker 1: It's a topic That's important an interesting for both of us And I hope we both hope that it's very useful For everyone listening. Speaker 1: so today yeah, so today we're going to be talking about feedback and i mean people which the colloquial term giving someone feedback and it's also a sort of managerial term.

0:36 Speaker 1: It happens in companies obviously, so its is a word that people are very familiar with. Speaker 1: give me some feedback. Speaker 1: I don't want to hear feedback or sorts ways to deal with feedback. Speaker 1: what we're talking about The context we're talking about it, though is specifically in relation to power. Speaker 1: How use power? Speaker 1: how can you see better the problems with that up power down power? Speaker 1: these are kind of things were going be discussing and relationship feedback Speaker 0: yes feed back.

1:03 Speaker 0: here's a well-worn topic in managerial circles for me. Speaker 0: there's no doubt about. Speaker 0: when I first started attending managerial training programs as young guy feedback sent was featured But do you know what? Speaker 0: They hardly ever related the challenge of feedback to issue a power. Speaker 0: It's actually what makes feedback so difficult and can make it powerful is when you acknowledge that's present between two people who are giving and receiving feedback. Speaker 0: And not to acknowledge it is just madness!

1:43 Speaker 0: Imagine giving people instruction about how or someone who even reports them without acknowledging that there are distorting effects on this conversation and you need to pay attention to it in terms of how your given and received feedback. Speaker 0: And power can be that distorting effect, so this is a great topic. Speaker 0: yeah Speaker 1: exactly yes. Speaker 1: its odd in the way that power isn't really explicitly mentioned. Speaker 1: thought about an indepth but as We've both discovered it seems like that's throughout the managerial world, power somehow is either a dirty word or something people don't want to talk about.

2:28 Speaker 1: Or maybe they enjoy. Speaker 1: but you know its just difficult thing. Speaker 1: and so we're trying make whole things much more transparent, accessible. Speaker 1: trynna help people understand and equip them with skills in this case the skill of giving and receiving feedback both from a power up position and from the power down position. Speaker 0: Yes, absolutely! Speaker 0: And so shall we go to this first scenario perhaps where someone is in the down position trying to give feedback?

2:59 Speaker 0: Do you want start there Vinay? Speaker 1: Yeah well maybe can just say couple things before.

3:05 Speaker 1: I guess let's talk about avoidance because There's a certain fear of feedback and it often carries associations or criticism particularly shame which is very important, whether it be our experiences at school or in the workplace. Speaker 1: Or perhaps in the family where people on authority give us feedback negative often In ways that are either harsh or we're sensitive and vulnerable to. Speaker 1: We were down power position. Speaker 1: And then is a tone That an attitude people carry into feedback scenarios Where they already on edge you could say, shame-prone.

3:52 Speaker 1: So I think that's one of the things that sort of organizes people to be avoidant. Speaker 1: feedback.

4:00 Speaker 0: Yes there is nothing which quite tests the level of personal security we have achieved in our life more than getting feedback or even having send feedback. Speaker 0: You know i was having a discussion with my oldest son just couple days ago and he said and it was like, wow okay. Speaker 0: And he wanted to give her feedback on the kind of culture or atmosphere that he saw as being created by her approach in a team. Speaker 0: but it was a conversation that he was having to prepare for because he felt very vulnerable doing it.

4:41 Speaker 0: you know?

4:44 Speaker 0: It is I know from myself. Speaker 0: I have cringed at getting feedback, you know in years gone by. Speaker 0: You know like so many probably hundreds of training programs where i've had to read feedback sheets At the end? Speaker 0: Where i didn't even get To design with questions that were being asked. Speaker 0: The organization themselves did That and so it's testing just how secure I am. Speaker 0: I remember, I've shoved them in my bag and walked out and thought i'm going to sit somewhere just have a coffee calm myself open the feedback folder because it's scary.

5:29 Speaker 0: It can feel like you know...I felt my face flush with color reading certain bits of feed back when someone names something that I didn't do or did do and i felt like that kind of passing wave of shame when i realized someone called me out for something. Speaker 0: And sometimes, they might have been right maybe not but this is territory which we feel deeply.

6:03 Speaker 1: you're just describing a situation where ostensibly your up power the teacher role and you're getting feedback. Speaker 1: So that's the thing about going up, Even if you're in an up power role, You can still feel vulnerability about receiving feedback. Speaker 1: It's almost like the person giving the feedback has a certain kind of power In and out itself. Speaker 1: even they are down-power And then certain sort forms Like written feed back Can be easier because you take it away Have coffee or look at it.

6:37 Speaker 1: On other hand your not looking The face or hearing their tone. Speaker 1: So that also influence the way that we receive that feedback. Speaker 0: Yes, and the up-and down power piece is really rather nuanced because while I am have a certain uppower role in the room with my students in inverted commas In corporate land It's only marginally up to take such a roll. Speaker 0: And the minute i leave That Room and speak To The Sponsor Of The Program Who Got Me In There To Teach I'm there trying to give a service that's pleasing the client and The clients deciding whether they're happy with me or not.

7:21 Speaker 0: And one of the things which will enable them decide one way or another is? Speaker 0: The participant feedback, and that we'll decide whether they asked me back again. Speaker 0: Mm-hmm and so i feel the lack Of my power up role. Speaker 0: in fact in the room Is quite different but outside the Speaker 1: room Speaker 0: and I'm dealing with the sponsor of the program, perhaps someone fairly senior in the organization who's making decisions about where i am going to earn money for next month.

7:49 Speaker 0: And so that is a power down role. Speaker 0: that im there. Speaker 1: Exactly! Speaker 1: And this points at how we move it up-and-down. Speaker 1: even if you are the boss there's still nuances. Speaker 1: You're talking to a supplier or you know an important customer, lots of ways in which we shift back and forth and this feedback is an example. Speaker 0: so yes it is I think its one the great challenges for being on the uproll.

8:24 Speaker 0: But in the up roll, getting feedback is one of the most fearsome things. Speaker 0: And it's really not difficult to organize yourself so that you don't get it. Speaker 0: if You don't specifically ask for feedback when you're in the upper role When your'e higher position there's a good chance you won't Get It and you'll never have to endure the discomfort managing difficult feedback. Speaker 0: and it's one of the distinguishing characteristics of really good leaders is they routinely ask for feedback, thank people when you get them.

8:57 Speaker 1: Well we'll come to that in a moment. Speaker 1: but let us stay with down power situation. Speaker 1: And I myself, last year was in a situation where it wasn't down power role. Speaker 1: someone is essentially my employer. Speaker 1: It's not like full time job but kind of contractual employment situations. Speaker 1: and yes i saw some things about the culture The team was operating and certain things that I felt were ethical issues, which in my helpfulness. Speaker 1: I thought i would raise with the owner of the business because you know I wanted to support That person And I wanted To see the Business do better?

9:46 Speaker 1: I had very good intentions and have a lot Of experience With Which to judge these matters.

9:53 Speaker 1: It didn't go down well. Speaker 1: I mean, ostensibly the owner was like oh thank you very much for your feedback but my contract wasn't renewed after that. Speaker 1: so being in a down powered role and giving feedback is dangerous! Speaker 0: Yeah it's really precarious endeavour And i think thats partly of anyone who chooses to give feedback up its so precarous. Speaker 0: you can literally lose your job for doing it. Speaker 0: And that makes it really tricky and something most people frankly avoid, which by the way means...

10:37 That's one of reasons why leaders operate in a scarcity about how they're impacting others because Speak up gradient and that's there's risks associated with it And if feels terribly vulnerable to To do so. Speaker 0: It's so easy to be dismissed. Speaker 0: You know when we give feedback Up, we're looking so carefully at the response of the person who were giving feedback? Speaker 0: If We just get an ounce Of dismissiveness if we got a little bit of irritation in their eyes you know, suddenly things don't look good and it can feel very difficult.

11:21 Speaker 0: And later on in this short podcast I'll talk about some tools around how to frame good feedback so that creating a defensive response. Speaker 0: There are certain well-worn and trusted tools to help us give feedback that make it more likely, It'll be received. Speaker 0: but whether you use the tool or not You're still having...you can't remove the power dynamic from the conversation. Speaker 1: That's right. Speaker 1: And I am. Speaker 1: if i look back on that particular experience there is number of lessons learned From it.

11:55 Speaker 1: One of them as..I think didn't take the power dynamics seriously enough. Speaker 1: I kind saw this person a little bit disappear in certain ways. Speaker 1: And because I'm a bit older, and then have more experience in the area... ...I sort of saw myself as the authority expert. Speaker 1: so there's a variety of ways which didn't really take that power differential quite seriously enough! Speaker 1: And i thought to give this feedback but it was um.. In fact ,i wasn't seeing the dangerousness at all.

12:28 Speaker 1: Well, I was careful but i guess I wasn't carefully enough. Speaker 0: It's hard to say whether you were like just how reactive your employer would have been or could've been depending upon how you'd delivered the feedback.

12:46 Speaker 0: But it's fair to say his response surprised. Speaker 0: so he moved pretty decisively around that and you know, it's...it is a shock when it happens. Speaker 0: It really-really is! Speaker 0: Its'a great shock.

13:04 Speaker 0: I have this in some regard In the situation Vinay When i'm coaching someone and This has alleviated little bit as ive got the rank of just being older but As younger person ,I would find myself sometimes Coaching very senior person And my job as a coach must include giving direct and clear feedback. Speaker 0: I can tell you sometimes, I shied away from giving direct feedback to CEO in an organisation where i just didn't feel like I had the courage to inhabit my voice and give feedback.

13:45 Speaker 0: And that became an area of intense work for me as i learned to occupy my voice better, really inhabit it. Speaker 0: practice skillful feedback even when im talking up gradient power. Speaker 0: You know, the coach is an unusual role. Speaker 0: Is it up power or downpower? Speaker 0: It actually depends. Speaker 0: and if you walk in for instance I remember walking gosh. Speaker 0: when going in i'd see this CEO...I go into a room in the building. Speaker 0: there would be somebody who had come around with trolley to ask what beautiful coffee or tea or biscuits did they want ...it was magnificent.

14:29 Speaker 0: he would come in, you know just exactly five minutes past the hour. Speaker 0: Someone would gently knock at it exactly out to tell him who's got is all the framings of someone who was very powerful. Speaker 0: and here I am needing to be brave and say yep your team does not feel heard by data and surveys, so forth to support that. Speaker 0: It was a brave thing especially in the context where all here it is him. Speaker 0: his up power position has been signalled everywhere. Speaker 0: Everywhere!

15:15 Speaker 1: Interesting isn't? Speaker 1: Yeah because even though your feedback You were delivering the feedback. Speaker 1: Right! Speaker 1: And as you say, that consultant role is a kind of interesting one. Speaker 1: it's talking just for the moment about down power and up power in complexities. Speaker 1: It's like that as a therapist because clearly I'm an up-power role. Speaker 1: The authority in some form. Speaker 1: people come they pay me money They want help feeling vulnerable. Speaker 1: So i am an up power role.

15:44 Speaker 1: And at the same time, if we look at the duality of that relationship The client is also my employer and they can fire me At a moment's notice If their not happy with how things go. Speaker 1: There was a client I had once who i worked for many years. Speaker 1: This person was very sensitive.

16:06 Speaker 1: It was one session an hour-and-a half. Speaker 1: this person used to like long sessions. Speaker 1: And after about an hour and ten minutes, I was feeling a little... my energy was down. Speaker 1: so i picked up a date that was in my tray and I ate it. Speaker 1: she fired me which is not okay. Speaker 1: That's the end of therapy! Speaker 1: The years of therapy.

16:33 Speaker 1: You can see how power Moves up and down in many different situations. Speaker 0: Yes, yes fascinating Speaker 1: to see it as a flow. Speaker 1: in that regard. Speaker 0: It's the flow is a natural flow And it's really useful to be aware of Of just when we are in. Speaker 0: update our power When were in low-power positions? Speaker 0: That they may vary depending upon the context. Speaker 0: where in?

17:02 Speaker 0: Yeah, it's so very interesting. Speaker 0: So I think we're spending a few minutes talking about the down power position... Yeah! Speaker 1: Let's go to up power position and let us talk about this because obviously there is big ticket item in terms of feedback or giving and receiving feedback on that role. Speaker 1: What are your first thoughts? Speaker 0: Well ummm....I love this quote from Julie Diamond book where she says you know they say It's lonely at the top, but it's quiet too.

17:36 Speaker 0: And what she meant by that is...it is difficult to get feedback at the Top and honestly at The Top because there such a dearth of information. Speaker 0: we tend To approach giving feedback down very like in almost inebriated with the power of in and up position. Speaker 0: And it can be so straightforward to have people come-in, let them know where their report was good or bad. Speaker 0: next move on... It's just like this is my job! Speaker 0: I've got to do that. Speaker 0: It's true but if we forget That our the up power position comes with certain effects on us then we can be Truly screwing up.

18:34 Speaker 0: The feedback Exercise by not noticing that when were in an upposition. Speaker 0: We have a tendency to Be less Inhibited, we've a tenancy. Speaker 0: where are ability? Speaker 0: To read the face of them and the emotions of others drops. Speaker 0: We have a tendency to think whatever ideas come into our head is, it's a better idea and as good idea. Speaker 0: All of these effects...these various affects on interpersonal skills need be taken in account when giving feedback. Speaker 0: but if you don't know that your being affected this way You can dispense with feedback like passing out five buck notes Speaker 1: And Speaker 0: damage relationships everywhere Speaker 1: Exactly.

19:23 Speaker 1: And I think, well we use the term power paradox or it's a term that has been used to describe this and its terms will come back quite few times. Speaker 1: What is key? Speaker 1: one of these things you just said people in general are not. Speaker 1: they don't know about what can say effective power? Speaker 1: Yes! Speaker 1: People knows when get more power or you feel more powerful, that you can command more people listen to. Speaker 1: They know generally about power. Speaker 1: they know experientially what it feels but most are not aware of.

20:01 Speaker 1: is this extra set we could say a dynamics that occurs around holding power which there's like even physiological effect. Speaker 1: the cortisol levels change. Speaker 1: your confidence-people who drive Mercedes or BMWs tend have to be more pushy. Speaker 1: And that's not just to put people in a box, it is pointing out. Speaker 1: That there isn't an effect of power. Speaker 1: and when I'm in the position... Yeah exactly! Speaker 1: you know, unless I know about this and unless i take that knowing and do something with it.

20:37 Speaker 1: Im just going to assume hey im an ordinary guy sure im in the role okay but y'know im no different than when was on the floor. Speaker 1: Hey treat me as another fellow. Speaker 1: there's a role that ive got been promoted. Speaker 1: what people don't realise is theres extra dimension of impact which then affects something like the whole giving and receiving of feedback. Speaker 0: Yeah, beautifully said yes it really does! Speaker 0: And this may be one of the main things that listeners and watchers of this podcast might pick up...and we'll have.

21:15 Speaker 0: you know there's another podcast on The Power Paradox in particular but its effects are having an elevated role on us mean ineffectual, hurtful and sloppy when it comes to both giving especially giving and receiving feedback. Speaker 0: And that's one of the reasons why I'm working with up positions. Speaker 0: people are having to give feedback.

21:51 Speaker 0: they fall broadly into two camps. Speaker 0: there is a conflict diverse type who don't want.

21:59 Speaker 0: I'm asking them to step into the authority of a role and fulfill the obligations that their job. Speaker 0: give feedback. Speaker 0: Like Speaker 1: you in coaching roles? Speaker 0: Yes, like me in the coaching role exactly! Speaker 0: And there are so many managers over these years who give insufficient inadequate feedback for various reasons. Speaker 0: one can be because they don't want to upset or overly disturb And so as a result, just frankly unconsciously they tend to sort of glaze over certain parts of the conversation where really distinct and accurate detailed feedback needs to be given on someone's performance.

22:44 Speaker 0: They'll talk in riddles In generalities and assume that other person understands what we're talking about. Speaker 0: usually don't. Speaker 0: So there is Probably more often you have leaders who dispense feedback really casually because it feels easy to do at the higher up. Speaker 0: You get and When they do that, I lose their principles of giving a good feed back And maybe this is a good time dimension. Speaker 0: but when i'm working with senior people or say stick To The guardrails including three key parts Of your Feedback objectively the behavior you're talking about.

23:30 Speaker 0: So don't generalize and say things like, well I think you seem to be lacking a little bit of professionalism...I mean what on earth does that mean? Speaker 0: Or or you've become a high maintenance thing or I don't think you are accountable. Speaker 0: These are terms thrown around corporately, but actually what is the behavior they're doing that you want to draw their attention? Speaker 0: You must name it objectively and non-blamefully.

24:01 Speaker 0: It doesn't matter of the order, but you must name the feeling at prompts in you because you will have a feeling about.

24:10 Speaker 0: And thirdly, what's the tangible impact on you of their behavior?

24:19 Speaker 0: This is fundamental. Speaker 0: I mean Dr Thomas Gordon came up with this many decades ago but he was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize because it's ground breaking set-up tools that he came up is the anatomy of good feedback. Speaker 0: And especially at times when we need to give feedback about someone's behavior, either delighting us or being a big problem for us and navigating how to give feed back up power gradient or downpower gradient requires handrail hold because it's precarious ground that can feel really uncertain, unfamiliar and vulnerable to give feedback.

25:10 Speaker 0: And certainly to hear it. Speaker 0: but in this case we're speaking about giving feedback. Speaker 0: I'll give you an example for now. Speaker 0: if a manager has a team that reports them someone's turning up late To utilize the tool might sound like this say hey thanks. Speaker 0: i just want mention something I've noticed three out of the last four meetings. Speaker 0: you have arrived late, somewhere between ten and twenty minutes late. Speaker 0: Now that's a...I'm concerned about that!

25:44 Speaker 0: And one other reason i am concerned is because it has meant I needed to stay back in meeting an update on things we discussed early before they got there. Speaker 0: It also means its push pressure me after that where I need updated but expected elsewhere. Speaker 0: and that's what I wanted to raise with you. Speaker 0: Stop! Speaker 0: Okay, so that is a little bit of good feedback right? Speaker 0: And there are two parts to it... Now It sounds conversational but its very carefully built around those three part ...and Its whole lot better than generally happens Which is either not give feedback until you're so pissed off about it.

26:27 Speaker 0: You end up learning something out. Speaker 0: that's Not very helpful. Speaker 0: and then when you do? Speaker 0: Uh, you might say...you might start with hey I just need to talk With you About the meetings. Speaker 0: i don't think your taking seriously..I Don't Think Your Taking Them Seriously And The other person goes what? Speaker 0: yeah Yeah, I Just Think I need to hold you accountable, and i think that You probably need To step up And be a bit more of A team player here. Speaker 1: It's like...

26:56 Euthymisms, yeah, generalities. Speaker 0: Yes! Speaker 0: Generalities, not only That might go on To say it would Be better for YOU if you did Because Problems like you know speaking too much or maybe not turning up till late You know, it's not good for your PR on you and frankly for your career coming forward. Speaker 0: And so that It's That second way of giving feedback that I've just described is problematic. Speaker 0: first Of all because it takes the posture that the person i'm speaking to a given Feedback when i'm role playing its their problem.

27:33 Speaker 0: you have a problem, so you should get it fixed. Speaker 0: And then I'm going to helpfully tell you why is your problem and what even you should do about it? Speaker 0: Unfortunately all of that approach to feedback is far more likely to create a defensive response where in the first place my whole posture is. Speaker 0: this is MY problem! Speaker 0: My problem is when i notice YOU come late. Speaker 0: by the way i noticed how specific three out of four meetings, I need to be really specific and objective about the behavior.

28:06 Speaker 0: I name my feeling at a name that tangible effect on me. Speaker 0: it is My problem that i'm now raising with you And then i'm going to pause and see what your response Is. Speaker 1: so The thing is from psychological point-of-view. Speaker 1: this is very interesting To me because we were talking About shame before in the vulnerability or feedback especially receiving feedback? Speaker 1: So What are you describing as It's key to shame? Speaker 1: because one of the things we talk about in shame is like a spotlight.

28:34 Speaker 1: All the attention goes on someone and their face goes red, they suddenly realise that they've made some sort of boo-boo. Speaker 1: You're talking about reading just, you know silently to yourself the feedback over coffee. Speaker 1: There's feedback sheets and feeling that response let alone face-to-face. Speaker 1: So one of the things we talk about they can make a difference is taking the spotlight off The other person and putting it on myself. Speaker 1: so instead of saying you've done this wrong or you need To improve or its in your interest I say This Is what i observe?

29:06 Speaker 1: And here how It is. Speaker 1: for me now That is very significant because what it does, is takes heat off the other person and makes a personal statement. Speaker 1: Even though I might be manager even though I'm authorized to give feedback... ...even though i am supposed to get feedback.. ..and even though delivering the feed back here by owning it.... It takes this personal component and puts it appropriately in that situation which helps kind of disarm the other persons help make them not feel so exposed.

29:34 Speaker 1: So all these things makes sense psychologically. Speaker 0: Yes, yes it. Speaker 0: I can see the connection you're drawing here between feedback and shame And how so often feedback is associated with shame. Speaker 0: But when you hold on to the handrail of keeping those three parts in providing Feedback. Speaker 0: You'll far less likely To inadvertently trigger shame in others. Speaker 0: and interestingly and helpfully It's exactly the same template. Speaker 0: whether your speaking up gradient down gradient someone who's at your level, I recommend utilizing a three-part iMessage because it is skillful in whichever direction you're working.

30:18 Speaker 0: It might take more courage to send up but its still fundamentally the same message. Speaker 0: It may take building one's awareness and sensitivity down that they are still. Speaker 0: fundamentally And as the message is, here's the behavior. Speaker 0: that's problematic for me and my problem. Speaker 0: The problem has been created by it...

30:45 Speaker 1: So I want to say something about complexity of this sort up-down relationship because its very clear if you're in a role or manager or something That your got power but giving feedback down. Speaker 1: however all roles have a kind of some sort of movement back and forth. Speaker 1: You were talking before about going to the supervisor or you know, the employer? Speaker 1: The person who's setting up your contract and your vulnerability there. Speaker 1: so this dynamic thing that happens in relationship...

31:15 therapist and I've got a client, that's a vertical relationship. Speaker 1: They're responsible. Speaker 1: they are paying me for some sort of help. Speaker 1: so i'm in the position to have an experience with that. Speaker 1: this client, like long sessions hour and a half. Speaker 1: And after about an hour or ten minutes I was getting a little bit tired. Speaker 1: my energy is going down...I picked up the date off of my desk and popped it in my mouth to give me a bit of energy as his client was just completely reactive.

31:53 Speaker 1: they were shut-down! Speaker 1: They weren't pissed off....and basically No more therapy. Speaker 1: So it just Speaker 0: shows you Speaker 1: how, You know It's a dual relationship really because they're the employer of me and at any point They can cease my employment. Speaker 1: so this does happen in many different situations In life even in kind of horizontal relationships. Speaker 1: We move back-and forth between one person having A little bit more power. Speaker 1: gradient giving more as Perth Helinger would say is when you are in position Of giving that.

32:29 Speaker 1: that puts you a little bit in the vertical role, like a parent gives to child. Speaker 1: But even between equals when you give more it put you an upgrade here. Speaker 1: so this dynamic happens and all sorts of roles. Speaker 1: So there's issue with feedback is relevant both When your giving feedback up? Speaker 1: When you're up and receiving feedback And also into personally. Speaker 0: Yeah It just very true We've talked about speaking from a down position and speaking an up position.

33:01 Speaker 0: But I think it gets subtle in an intimate relationship, say you know...I'm married to my wife and we have what we looked at might seem as a power equal relationship. Speaker 0: Except that I notice there's times when if she is giving me feedback about something and i'm uncomfortable with it,I might feel ashamed or threatened. Speaker 0: then what I might revert to are behaviors like they give an up position And I'll do that as a means of diverting myself away from the vulnerability or big giving, having hearing feedback is confronting.

33:44 Speaker 0: So what i might start speaking faster, more rationally running arguments and disabling the opposing argument finding the error in any rationale I could find. Speaker 0: And i can do that faster and better...and when I DO THAT! Speaker 0: ...I get a bit of an up position and that alleviates my discomfort. Speaker 0: Unfortunately though My wife is not so happy for me to start speaking down. Speaker 0: She's like she calls me and goes whoa. Speaker 0: Whoa, whoa? Speaker 0: Are you what?

34:21 Speaker 0: What's happening now? Speaker 0: She'll say to be. Speaker 0: she will say what are you doing there? Speaker 0: You trying to just find fault in my argument And is that making you feel better? Speaker 0: And so she'll call me on it because I know I'll say something like Yes, I did that for a moment then didn't I? Speaker 0: and that's because I felt very uncomfortable about what you were just sharing with me. Speaker 0: And I wanted to kind of do a little bit of sleight-of hand and move the attention away from it, but that was really confronting.

34:56 Speaker 0: in fact... You know? Speaker 0: That's when I'm compelled to pause and sit in the discomfort of being the one receiving feedback which is inconsistent And where we receive feedback that's different to the identity... Speaker 1: Exactly, Speaker 0: yes. Speaker 0: That is critical isn't it Vinay? Speaker 1: That's right exactly and I think this segues into a variety of different directions one of which is The whole issue knowing oneself Which as kind existential interest i have As therapist not just about solving people problems also want help People know more fully who they are.

35:35 Speaker 1: I'm sixty-seven, and still discovering things about myself. Speaker 1: So feedback is very useful for that because you know everyone all of us have blind spots. Speaker 1: All of us knows some things about ourselves or think we're a certain way And some of that correlates to reality or impact in Some of it doesn't. Speaker 1: where were talking in the previous episode about impacts? Speaker 1: so here by getting The impact We find out something more About yeah who i actually am In relationship?

36:00 Speaker 1: There's certain ways That i believe that i Am. Speaker 1: But, you know this kind of self-knowledge that your talking about self awareness allows me to expand and take in the moment. Speaker 1: That kinda feedback into realize what it is I'm doing an even patterns a power that I am enacting. Speaker 1: so this is for me very exciting because i think this goes beyond just sort management consulting or do better job as leader. Speaker 1: something like that its really about knowing who u are on more fundamental level feedbacks, not just about improving your role or improving schools of behaviors.

36:38 Speaker 1: It's really about understanding myself more fully because if I know who i am like you know clearly you've identified some things about yourself speaking fast and such then I'm able to acknowledge that very readily easily when it is brought into my attention And perhaps do something a bit differently Because You have got awareness before their action can change. Speaker 1: So in the bigger picture Feedback fits sense of knowing who I am more fully, which yeah i think is a much larger context.

37:11 Speaker 0: Yes feedback yes...I just think you've made a link from feedback to the bigger agenda of us becoming more of who we are and in the context of leadership I'd suggest that this feedback can give into where we are landing as we intend and where we're landing quite differently to our intention.

37:40 Speaker 0: Well, that's something I often say to my senior people who I'm coaching... And they'll not see the best you here! Speaker 0: They're not seeing whom YOU really ARE! Speaker 0: They getting another version and it is time it's time for them to see who you really are and that is going take a little more vulnerability.

38:08 Speaker 0: That conversation has initiated on how? Speaker 0: Through feedback, its feedback lets us know. Speaker 0: there something else we're growing into patterns of behaviour which are merely manoeuvres and strategies to avoid momentary discomfort rather than expressing the essence who we really are. Speaker 1: Yeah that's a good incentive, I like how you frame it as well because we've talked about giving feedback up.

38:46 Speaker 1: There's the other dimension as well, which is in an up position. Speaker 1: Which is receiving feedback and that That's a very difficult topic because I mean we talked about The three sixty and such. Speaker 1: it's difficult Because when you're in opposition Yeah You can easily think um i don't really need this or i know i'm doing Well. Speaker 1: Or uh you Know kind of resistance to To receding some feedback up. Speaker 1: so In that sort Of Emperor, you know there's the classic story of the emperor with no clothes like people don't want to give The feedback to the emperor.

39:20 Speaker 1: The child finally does. Speaker 1: People in an organization Don't really want to expose themselves or take a risk And so the problem is that the people at the top get less of that feedback. Speaker 1: They think they're doing okay and There's a gap. Speaker 1: So part of the requirement Or the skill we are suggesting Is Seeking out that feedback, because unless you actively do that. Speaker 1: You're less likely to get it.

39:50 Speaker 0: Yes It's actively seeking this feedback is so very Very critical. Speaker 0: I sometimes sit with leaders and i'll say So in what ways are you asking for feedback? Speaker 0: How And when Are you doing it? Speaker 0: And they'll look at me and say well people can. Speaker 0: sometimes you know, it's like give me feedback anytime. Speaker 0: They want that. Speaker 0: now I'm open. Speaker 0: Yeah No That's not going to do It and don't Give Me the. Speaker 0: my door is always Open. Speaker 0: Policy Nonsense You Know?

40:23 Speaker 0: It Completely Overlooks The Power Dynamic Mm-hmm. Speaker 0: You Know They're Just Not Going. Speaker 0: So You Need To Take Initiatives so You Can Ask At The End Of Meetings How Was That? Speaker 0: You Just Ran A Meeting? Speaker 0: We're in a meeting for forty-five minutes. Speaker 0: Is it really an impossible request to spend five minutes talking about whether that meeting actually was useful and helpful? Speaker 0: And what parts of the meeting you felt ran better or where you performed better, or were more helpful if you ran the meeting—or less helpful?

41:00 Speaker 0: There's obviously your three sixties which is critical. Speaker 0: There is asking about particular. Speaker 0: the other way we give feet help people get feedback Is? Speaker 0: We nominate a particular behavior that the manager wants to Get better at and then we are specifically of The six-people closest to them say how they're going on that behavior. Speaker 0: It's literally in two and a half minutes survey Asking about one behavior any other comments and how important is it that they improve in this behavior.

41:32 Speaker 0: And we call it a pulse survey, nominated as important. Speaker 1: That's very interesting from a number of angles to me because yeah, three sixty is big process. Speaker 1: it usually highly managed and takes a lot of time and gives a lot information. Speaker 1: And you know often people can get very cynical cause they put all this effort into giving the feedback. Speaker 1: where does that go? Speaker 1: or at best someone will say thanks They might not even do that. Speaker 1: It just, it disappears into nothing.

42:14 Speaker 1: so I think what you're talking about is important because it puts feedback in the role of like an ongoing conversation and the pulse thing as a good example of that. Speaker 1: So its bit like action research Its' not to be doing a piece of research or making recommendations. Speaker 1: It's an on-going process which also involves feedback and adjusting what we do. Speaker 1: This setting feedback within context for our ongoing conversations dialogue, an ongoing interest in how am I doing puts the manager and a kind of vulnerable position.

42:46 Speaker 1: You know they're no longer just sort of invulnerable on their power by using that power to actively seek out. Speaker 1: or How Am i Doing On This Front? Speaker 1: That I Want To Change involves people process, which also gives people a sense of safety and inclusion. Speaker 1: And you know respect. Speaker 1: I imagine that would come from doing Speaker 0: that?

43:12 Speaker 0: Yeah it really does! Speaker 0: It changes everything...I see it as one of the critical obligations of occupying any leadership role. Speaker 0: You know when you look at KPIs-and i've done this over the years with many leaders they look at the KPIs for their role in all things have got to deliver.

43:31 Speaker 0: That I then would say to my coachy. Speaker 0: Oh and right next to all of these you've got a deliverer. Speaker 0: These projects this sales figure, there's revenue. Speaker 0: whatever it is This system platform change You are also obligated to routinely regularly collect feedback from those with him work review it honestly and engage in a conversation about that. Speaker 0: That must be part of your year at work, so how is that going to work? Speaker 0: I say let's consider how we'll plan Speaker 0: that.".

44:09 Speaker 1: And then the thing that i would add to that which is what you're doing on your role as coach has kind of challenging and supporting them giving them the tools and focusing their attention. Speaker 1: My interest is also in the dimension of emotional support because all this touches on shame Touches on vulnerability. Speaker 1: even if you're a top manager receiving this kind of feedback and making these improvements I think the Emotional supporters highly significant. Speaker 1: And often people are very critical of themselves Or they used to receive criticism maybe historically from their families or so many contexts, So it makes them difficult for people too step into this vulnerability.

44:51 Speaker 1: So I would always want to see the question, what kind of support do you need answered? Speaker 1: Or i would wanna supply that support or See how support can be built in a system because You know we're much more vulnerable than We appear and The higher someone is. Speaker 1: In a sense they are more vulnerable though They don't feel That Because when they get This ouchy feedback it's a disjunction between how they see themselves as powerful and their being stripped down, the emperor with no clothes.

45:23 Speaker 1: So yeah for me this is also an important ingredient in feedback across the board its support And there are few things that can help both delivery and reception of these. Speaker 1: so firstly self messages. Speaker 1: when I'm receiving critical feedback How can I support myself? Speaker 1: or what kind of support do i need? Speaker 1: I might need to take a break. Speaker 1: I might have limits. Speaker 1: well like you know for most people frankly in my observation, my professional and personal experience People can't take more than two items of negative feedback.

45:58 Speaker 1: They just can't. Speaker 1: they're just Speaker 0: no Speaker 1: the glaze over. Speaker 1: So, yeah so you know a limit is one form of support. Speaker 1: that's essential. Speaker 1: and taking a break or going okay that's great. Speaker 1: let me go away and digest this before I get more...so that's one of the pieces i would say. Speaker 1: um support also comes from the ongoing dialogue in people getting used to that and that becoming part of the norm as well..So it's not so strange.

46:25 Speaker 1: they're kind of used to do it. Speaker 1: What else would we say is elements of support? Speaker 1: Oh, that's right. Speaker 1: I want to say one more thing. Speaker 1: in the giving of feedback i think something that can help In terms Of It being received Is how much emotional energy We have because its not just about even The technicalities you're describing About this behavior and everything Its the tone like You are talking about your wife picking up Your tone Transaction analysis.

46:59 Speaker 1: they talk about three ego states parent, adult and child. Speaker 1: And with our tone we can move into a parental type of state even between two equals. Speaker 1: so the emotional energy that We bring to feedback is also significant To be aware of to receive feedback on and to monitor ourselves. Speaker 1: because if look If I'm giving feedback to you about something that iIm not happy with, you mentioned being late or it might be any number of things. Speaker 1: Naturally I am going have some irritation and whilst yeah this is how it impacts me the formal way there's gonna a tone in my voice now.

47:36 Speaker 1: thats human and natural. Speaker 1: however if theres too much head-of-steam then its just not going work. Speaker 1: so one skills we're talking about here is when I have a lot of energy, a lot reaction around someone's behavior to work with that myself. Speaker 1: To take a breath so...to bring my self into little bit more of a centered place and then come back. Speaker 1: And When i give the feedback..I'm giving it from a little bit More of a calmer Place rather than that aggravated place.

48:12 Speaker 0: Yes, it reminds me of the triune brain model and sometimes I've been in groups where i've explained there's The red room which is our primitive brain And that's what we fight-and-flight? Speaker 0: Get really you know like want to take somebody on or run. Speaker 0: then There's the multicolored room. Speaker 0: We have all these feelings. Speaker 0: might be Romantic but it might be upset It might be lonely Actually feel some versions of embarrassment. Speaker 0: and then there's the cool room where You're actually noticing all this other stuff, but you'll not so touch bit it.

48:51 Speaker 0: It's where we're accessing The six millimeters of gray matter right around that the brain And That is really from the coolroom. Speaker 0: We need to give feedback But we give about the call room must sample and understand the feelings who have. Speaker 0: you just don't Deliver the feedback from The multicolored room and definitely not from the red room. Speaker 0: Don't give feedback when you want to kill somebody or You just, you know And all your water run. Speaker 0: You're terrified and don't and see whether you can avoid giving Feedback when you're enthralled with a feeling itself.

49:26 Speaker 0: Oh I was so upset and I'm is so Distraught. Speaker 0: that's actually probably not the best time to get people like do your work notice it feel it And then go to the cool room where you can observe these other rooms and deliver it from here. Speaker 0: That's why, as I said before... ...I noticed that you were late in a meeting so you might have been concerned about me. Speaker 0: If i'm honest there was a little frustrating because.... I had to stay back afterwards for you but I am delivering this from the Cool Room!

50:05 Speaker 1: It is same thing of course horizontal relationships where you know we tend to be a lot freer about expressing our frustration and the marriage or something. Speaker 1: And that's why it is also equally important because you know, raises us up to a sort of relative power position and kind the other person can shrink in front that. Speaker 1: So it's also dynamic to be aware or take responsibility for because we're talking about power empowerment. Speaker 1: how do empower others? Speaker 1: How are they using power?

50:43 Speaker 1: And power is not just the role its these little movements voice energy. Speaker 0: yes absolutely You know, if you want it can feel very powerful to raise your voice and scream at someone from the red room But it's not probably not effective.

51:06 Speaker 0: It's not going to help you in your intimate relationship. Speaker 0: To do that Better to burn your wood and do your work on it. Speaker 0: I want to acknowledge there's always moments when you might raise your voice, i'm not saying that a good relationship should never have that but as a pattern of giving feedback best NOT TO DO IT WHEN YOU FEEL IMPOWERED BY YOUR RAGE!

51:35 Speaker 0: And for some people won't give feedback until they feel so angry. Speaker 0: That's right.

51:43 Speaker 0: Because that is when they feel powerful, the anger finally makes me feel powerful enough to tell you the truth! Speaker 1: Exactly Speaker 0: and it's like. Speaker 0: well actually... You are utilising a power dynamic here.

52:01 Speaker 0: where you have to feel powerful to yell or raise your voice speak louder faster and ultimately speak down is a strategy of yours to help you get the courage to give feedback. Speaker 0: Actually, it's pretty primitive strategy Speaker 1: and its probably not Speaker 0: conducive for good relationship. Speaker 0: yeah Speaker 1: And even happens with managers who have power but as you've talked about some are less willing to give feed back or don't feel so confident they can do that. Speaker 1: They could build up a head of steam and then yell, And really are powerful but the feedbacks Speaker 0: won't Speaker 1: be received.

52:44 Speaker 0: No no it's not competent. Speaker 0: That is where we want to build awareness you're talking about. Speaker 0: I've sat with probably hundreds of managers and asked them this question as individualist groups. Speaker 0: So what happening around you don't like? Speaker 0: What are the behaviors going on here that I problematic and I have to tell you Some managers will sit there. Speaker 0: Yeah, nothing everything's just great. Speaker 0: Everything is just great. Speaker 0: And I'll say really?

53:13 Speaker 0: There's no one in your team currently doing something That you're actually not that happy about. Speaker 0: they go oh Well yeah Actually this There is, there's quite a lot. Speaker 0: And I'll say you must know that You must build your awareness because if you don't carry that awareness and start to professionally and intelligently construct messages around it It just comes out sloppily Unhelpfully at a time where you feel powerful enough To start saying all this stuff but not skillfully.

53:46 Speaker 0: So yeah Very interesting. Speaker 0: This is feedback Vinay Speaker 1: That's right. Speaker 1: Well, there is always lots to talk about and we'll draw this episode to a close. Speaker 1: Always great talking with you And look forward to continuing next time. Speaker 0: Yeah Me too! Speaker 0: Thanks Vinay.